Helya banished(Cutscene)

Lore Story Forum
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Which of course says a lot about our fight with Denathrius…

True we killed Helya in Legion and have kept getting stronger over time to the point where we killed Argus after interrupting an attack that would have ended all creation but Argus was prematurely born while Denathrius was at full power.

Denathrius did anticipate his being defeated and captured though judging from his reaction did not anticipate being on the verge of death before being saved from that fate by Remornia… I’m going to assume he threw the fight and held back deliberately even as Remornia went all out herself since he thought himself incapable of dying.

What are you expecting? For the Primus to be the Final Boss of Shadowlands Patch 9.3 after we kill Zovaal in 9.2?

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22

Denathrius lost his sigil, we know, wighout sigil they are weaker

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Well, he did apparently lead the other Eternal Ones to victory in the struggle that ended with Zovaal’s imprisonment, so it could very well be that as defender of the Shadowlands, he’s the most powerful of them.

The other Eternal Ones might just plain not be empowered for that sort of thing, while due to his role and that of Maldraxxus, the Primus could be specifically “made” for the purpose of casting out foreign entities who’ve intruded upon the Shadowlands. And ultimately Helya is such an entity who doesn’t really belong there.

Zovaal’s technically working with tools and magic that aren’t his own (all of his fancy Domination/Maw stuff came from designs pulled out of the Primus’ head and Zovaal repurposing the likely Primus-made devices imprisoning him) so it’s possible the Jailer’s weaker and less in control of his current abilities than he would be if he regained his own sigil and with it full access to whatever capabilities he originally possessed before being cast down and locked up.

EDIT: Moreover, one will recall that even Sargeras - an actual titan who was even stronger than the rest of the Pantheon - couldn’t maintain absolute control over Medivh at all times despite partially inhabiting his body from birth. Forms of possession that don’t involve outright evicting and replacing the person’s soul (like how Balnazzar “wore” the dead husk of Dathrohan) aren’t necessarily 100% foolproof, especially if the still-living host in question has a strong enough will to constantly be trying to reassert control.

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24

Primus just seems to be another NPC so powerful he completely robs any agency the player has for dealing with these threats.

I mean what even is the point of the “Maw walker” now. Blizzard is writing a story where the player isn’t needed at all. So we might as well not play it.

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If the Primus ultimately turns out to be a Good Guy and survives the Expansion then he, Sin’dane, Vashj, Denathrius, the Polemarch, Thenios and Xandria are Too Cool to Die while the Archon, Chyrus, Kalisthene and Eridia would be Too Uncool to Die!

Incidentally Devos, Krexus, Stradama and Akarek were Too Cool to Live while Lysonia, Gorak Zhar, Margrave Vyraz and Margrave Gharmal were Too Hate Sink to Live.

Too Cool to Die:

  1. The Primus
  2. Sire Denathrius,
  3. Margrave Sin’dane
  4. Baroness Vashj
  5. Baroness Draka
  6. Baron Alexandros Morgraine
  7. The Polemarch Adrestes Paragon of Devotion
  8. Thenios Paragon of Wisdom
  9. Xandria Paragon of Courage
  10. Vesiphone Paragon of Purity
  11. Mikanikos the Forgelite Prime
  12. Lady Moonberry
  13. Lord Herne
  14. Droman Aliothe
  15. The Winter Queen

Too Cool to Live:

  1. Akarek
  2. Krexus
  3. Stradama
  4. Devos
  5. Ursoc

Too Good for this Sinful Earth:

  1. Willowblossom

Too Uncool to Die:

  1. The Archon
  2. Chyrus Paragon of Humility
  3. Kalisthene
  4. Eridia Hand of Purity
  5. Helya

Too Hate Sink to Live:

  1. Lysonia
  2. Gorak Zhar
  3. Ara’lon(they had him kill Ursoc so we’d rejoice when Gorak Zhar killed him)
  4. Margrave Vyraz
  5. Margrave Gharmal
  6. Kel’Thuzad(specifically written as a Hate Sink in Shadowlands so that we’d kill him)
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26

Clearly implied by Eyir.

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Every moment of lore that is revealed makes me more a fan of Helya.

Man, being a Helya fan is worse than being a Sylvanas fan. At least Sylvanas gets bikini points. Helya just gets dissed and dismissed.

I feel like Helya is the most tragic victim of the whole piece - if not the hero. It is almost like Tyrande being hushed. Maybe one day, Helya will at least get renewal, which seems to be the runner up prize.

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28

Ofcourse you would like one of the thinly veiled sexist plots in the game, Zerde

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29

Hrmmm, the wq bannished hundreds of hundreds drust in a single cinema.

This is powerfull too

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Pump the brakes on that ideological claptrap. The scenario would’ve panned out the same way if Helya had been male and/or the Primus been female.

Odyn wronged Helya, the problem is he seems to get away with it and she’s willing to hurt lots of innocent people and harm the cosmic order just to get back at him.

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31

Why are you trying to shoehorn race into the discussion when the issue Faranoth tried to shoehorn in related to gender?

The rl culture that inspired Helya, Odyn and the val’kyr, vry’kul, etc… are the Vikings. Helya is a villain, she needed to be stopped, plus they wanted to show the Primus.

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32

Since a few people such as yourself brought gender issues into the discussion, I have two questions for you;

  • Do you think it was sexist of Blizzard to both villain-bat and kill off Xe’ra, the first clearly female naaru character?
  • Do you think it was sexist of Blizzard to villain-bat Yrel, one of the few- if not the only - major female Draenei characters?
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33

Ah, but we don’t have an equivalent scenario, now do we? I don’t think there’s one that even comes close.
The last time we had one close from a female character (Sylvanas-> Sira), both the female characters were crazy.

With Xera and Illidan, Illidan promptly escaped an overpowered a Prime Naaru (female) and killed her before she could subjugate him.

But crazy or unreasonable females are always there in abundance (Sylvanas, MOP Jaina, Helya, NW Tyrande, Yrel?, Talanji?) whenever they want revenge or justice.

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34

The way blizz tells their stories might be a problem here. Because, we have vrykuls that are willing to join him and are willing to become val’kyrs. Why? :man_shrugging:

Also, he said peculiar stuff before:

So, he is :poop:-head, sure, but there could’ve been a story explaining better what could’ve been there so problematic that he would be willing to do questionable things to fulfill his role as a prime designate and defend Azeroth (or the titan machinery on it).

The question was not to me. But she is not the first female naaru, the 1st one was Dark Star aka K’ara iirc.

Also, for some reason there are seeming more female characters lately for the light-related stuff. Be it Talanji with her light / radiant spell when she was escaping in on of the 1st Nazmir scenarios, Calia, Yrel, Z’rali. Why? Can’t say either. Maybe torturing female naaru should’ve resonate with the players more, or something, idk.

I think that their change of the take on the Light in general is a clear retcon that does not fit too well older lore and might cause a lot of contradictions.

Yrel becoming a villain (maybe, maybe not) is just an odd decision, because losing Maraad for that would be an odd decision for an already scarce roster of notable draenei.

Is there any extra podtext stuff behind the scene that could be considered “sexist” on top of just questionable decisions and poor execution / writing? Not sure if intentional.

I mean, having Tyrande being portrayed as inferior and proven wrong again and again by Varian and Anduin who are kids in comparison, does look stupid IMO and does not fit the story of night elves being the force they were throughout the history, being able to successfuly survive and adapt, until suddenly there is need to show human superiority.

They are the race that had many notable female characters, both “good” and “villainous”, who as this amazonian-style nation could’ve been a great source of characters who do show female character as worthy of being protagonists and a big force for the story.

There could be a bigger rant including C. Golden contradicting herself, but it’s a wall-o-text as is.

gl hf

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35

Ah, so you don’t find it sexist that Blizzard gave the first major female naaru depicted in-game a negative portrayal and killed her off to shill Incellidan? (Illidan 10,000 years ago: “The girl I want rejected me and got with my brother… time to join a murderous, world-destroying demon army.” What group of people does that sound like?).

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Ofcourse I do, that’s what I said. It’s sexist against Xera, because despite Illidan being a murderous self absorbed jerk, the story vindicates him, and allows him to overthrow her despite her supposed power.

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Lots of good points in your comment. I agree completely with your assessment of Odyn.

Thank you for clarifying about K’ara, my mistake. I amended it to say Xe’ra is a major character, since I don’t think anything happened with K’ara in WoD after she was turned back to the Light.

I’m ultimately not sure whether or not - and if so, how much - sexism is involved. I would say less than some people say and I don’t think the Primus beating Helya is sexist. The portrayal of Tyrande from Wrath to Mists was one I suspected of being that way, but maybe the writers just don’t like Tyrande (I know David Kosak didn’t at one point).

I know people have complained about lots of Blizzard’s female WoW characters being villains (Whitemane, Onyxia, Azshara, Yrel), going crazy somewhere (Alleria, Jaina, Tyrande), getting killed off (Whitemane, Ysera, Onyxia, Xe’ra) or any combo of the above (Sylvanas) with exceptions being rare (Shandris, Alexstraza). So while I can see the precedent, it doesn’t mean sexism is hiding under every rock.

The writers definitely have a human superiority, and now a “Light bad”, fixation.

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38

Tell that to Tiffin Wrynn.

You want a grief stricken babe crying for his meemaw, hide Anduin’s mom under a head shot rock.

Hiding queens under pain of death to head shot rocks is par for the course.

The… Ism you mentioned is the oppressive rock.

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39

Odyns only crime was helyas transformation and killing the godkings family. I doubt strongly that this crime is more then messing with the shadowlands, torture of thousands of thousands of vyrkul for the crime of odyn, help sylvanas and be in league with the jailor. Helya bias is fine but pls be atleast fair in scale

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40

No - Helya opposed Odyn on behalf of the Vrykul who refused. They declined him. She respected that.

I think there was a crime against the original Vrykul who refused Odyn, as well.

That makes me feel even worse for Helya. Odyn forced his will upon her because she backed mortals who refused him.

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