Healthiest ret changes

PVP Arenas
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this is the primary reason ret is so oppressive
this was the primary reason was so oppressive in shadowlands (necrolord divine storm)

there’s no reason for several damage sources to take place inside of a global like this
that’s even before talking about how all 3 of those damage sources do as much or more than other specs actual singular big spenders EACH

SL destro tier bonus did this exact same thing to a LESSER extent even and was reasonably nerfed because it just wasn’t good for the game

---------------- the cleanest way to balance this interaction --------------------

reduce this to 2-3% per stack in PvP

then reduce this by 33%~ in PvP combat

retribution having consistent damage and high damage aren’t issues
nobody is mad that JV hit for 120k or even 140k when you have every cd up and your target is stunned

1 minute wings with JV doing important damage in stuns is more than a fine win condition

------------------ DURABILITY THE OTHER SIDE OF RETS OPPRESSION -------------------------

obviously aside from the stacked damage sources giving rets 300k damage globals, retribution is also absurdly durable
i’m fully aware that the aim is to make ret more durable

but right now rets have SHADOWLANDS feral/enh/warrior levels of sustain
every other spec in the game has been brought down dramatically intentionally
this rework (with pve in mind primarily btw) doesn’t mean rets should be the sole exception to the defensive balancing efforts we’ve made so far in DF

there’s 3 issues to look at

THIS is through and through the most egregious talent right now
this is basically a passive ignore pain x2

reducing it by 50% in PvP combat would go a long way

reducing this by 50% making DP a 25% wall (usable in stuns)
and reducing SoVs absorb by 10% would be an extremely healthy change that would still accomplish the goal of making ret more durable than it was before
without being beyond over the top

and finally

reduce this to 1%
exact same situation fury was in earlier in the expansion

i’d like any constructive discussion
i personally think there’s good rets out there campaigning for JV nerfs intentionally misleading unaware players

JV hitting hard isn’t what makes ret so unfun to play against and it’s extremely sketchy to offer that up to avoid meaningful changes IMO

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Nah that person was already 30%, fake news.

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I agree with all of that. Very fair changes and hitting talents rather than baseline abilities. I was thinking the talent that increases spenders to 4 hp for 20% more damage might also be an issue, but maybe not.

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Pretty solid write up tbh, I still dislike that 4 holy power spender talent with every fiber of my being though. But ye, your suggestions are pretty spot on. Might need slightly more but at the very least a good spot to start the conversation.

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i would agree with this, but i think i would rather see final reckoning taken down a notch first. they’ve recreated and deepened the modifier stacking problems everyone has already had with ret forever, and i think a free ranged superwarbreaker is more irritating to play against than something that might theoretically offer more gameplay depth between goes

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Nerf rogue more

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Final Reckoning is already 50% nerfed in PvP. It only gives 15% bonus damage, not the full 30%.

All good changes to slow down all the burst. I would like if they also nerfed Vanguard of Justice to 10% so people wouldn’t play it in PvP.

They can make up for all of those nerfs by adding 10% damage to generators for sustain. It’s one of the few tuning knobs they have used in the past that actually felt good.

I haven’t noticed Crusaders Reprieve feeling all that powerful, it’s usually one of my lowest heals only above leech enchants. I’m pretty sure at 1% that talent would just be dead.

Slight nerf on SoV and Fading Light would be optimal as long as they don’t over do it.

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i don’t see what relevance this has when freck is still more than twice as popular as execution sentence. they should nerf freck further

  1. i think people would still be talenting into 3yds increased range on these abilities if its healing was reduced
  2. if it’s not all that powerful, nerfing it probably won’t be very significant

seems kind of early to assume the best spec in the game by miles will need compensation for being brought down to earth

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If you open your eyes a bit wider youll see the Justicar’s Vengeance above the 30% point hitting him from well over 50% for 118k and then within the same global multiple dmg sources auto attacking for the last 30%, this was essentially a oneshot

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So what you’re really saying is we need to prune hand of freedom and judge dispel from retpaladin.

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I’d be super fine with all of these changes. Only one is maybe not the crusaders reprieve one on top of all the other defensive nerfs.

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Yes let’s just nerf Ret from all sides and make it useless again, cmon, you are a Gladiator spouting garbage.

I could see this, but the nerfs you suggested to Ire are too much, makes the talents pointless. Everyone getting hit with 25% crit damage nerf in 10.1, you combine that with these nerfs and that DS is now hitting for like 40k crit, for 2 talent points. DA can be tracked just like any other CD, dunno why people are surprised when they are hit by it.

Ret doesn’t need any defensive nerfs, pretty sure Dusk and SoV are both BUTCHERED by dampening, so you are just losing value every single percent it goes up. Then your idea is to leave us with 1 CD at 25%, which is creeping on the lowest DR in the game. Oh but bubble, yeah right, cause bubble totally carried Ret before.

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Very reasonable. Almost exactly what I would do. I think inquisitor’s ire should be limited to 5 stacks in PvP, this reduces its damage and kills the perfect synergy it has with empyrian legacy. Empyrian legacy’s damage bonus could be taken away for good measure.

If further nerfs are needed I’d look at vanguard of justice first.

Let’s talk about some buffs. WoG is trash even with blessed hands which is an expensive talent. Emancipate needs to become an honor talent, ret mobility was made even worse in PvP.

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because it’s overperforming on all fronts?

these aren’t for no reason and i’m not just randomly hating on paladins emotionally lmao

just remove your bias and look at the scenario
look at your success in just a day
do you think you just figured it all out all of a sudden?

okay then revisit it in 10.1? the game doesn’t have to be unplayable for the next 3-4 months for no reason

every class in the game got defensive nerfs going into dragon flight
shadowlands had a LOT of self sustain and that was obviously something we were moving away from

ret durability right now is better than sl feral/enh/arms easily
i have no idea how you think that’s fine

i mean nobody said that, you can 25% wall in stun high and save trinket every other DR that’s extremely valuable

cds usable in stuns in general are bad for the game, but at least at 25% you’d have to use it high enough that it’s not wasted which is a bare minimum skillcap

sanc keeps your healer out of cc sov is massive and there’s a solid amount of self healing

ret wouldn’t be fragile lmao

wouldn’t be opposed to either this being excluded or the aegis nerf being excluded in favor of keeping the reprieve nerf

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I get sarcasm is hard to get in text, but yeah 50% to dead isn’t special either :joy:

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YES great take. Preemptive walls are one of the few skillful outplays still left in the game

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You are just assuming I’m bad to begin with, like I couldn’t possibly get 2400 if my spec wasn’t broken. I’m not struggling on the PVP ladder it’s just not my main focus.

Like they revisited after the RD nerfs and Ret was dogwater?

Its perfectly playable, I’m fighting all those Rets that you are, I get 3 Rets in my lobby and sometimes I lose, you see me crying about it saying they need nerfs, no, because most the time it’s something I did wrong that leads to my death, not them being busted.

What self sustain did Ret have, trading all its damage to WoG? Defensives, imagine having actual defensives coming into DF, sure wasn’t Ret.

Someone has to be on top, and nice of you to leave out DH since it’s Ret without bubble, but 5x the mobility.

I disagree, some people have poor reaction time or ping and they are stunned before they can even react, they are supposed to pre defensive a stun they don’t even know is coming lol?

Disagree again, without dispel protection on Freedom Ret is still pretty easy to kite, lower defensives mean you are just taking more damage on your way to your target.

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I guess this confirms that ret is fine. :thinking:

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the last 5 years and 500 games you’ve put into this season before going up 300 points in 20 minutes would make that a safe bet yea

i think it’s more delusional to think the changes didn’t have anything to do with it

when exactly was ret dogwater? because bm cupid was still r1 viable the last 3 months
ret spent all of SL being insane
ret spent the first half of this season being insane

besides after the initial nerfs they DID revisit it
they did this entire rework LOL?

wow that’s so cool you’re fighting the fighter jets in your own fighter jet
maybe i just need to throw my rocks a little bit harder

ret does more damage, has bigger globals, has better team utility, and wake does almost what the hunt does on 1 third the cd lol

that’s part of the games basic skillcap

you will never be “SURPRISE!” stunned
you’re supposed to be managing your personal and your teams DR as well as the opponents win condition

that’s literally the point of the game
things that make it not matter if you’re aware or not actively make the game worse and lower the skillcap

that’s you playing badly

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