Havoc Wishlist for 10.0

With the announcement of the 10.0 reveal in April today, I am posting this to begin the conversation pertaining to a possible spec rework, and hopefully generate a community discussion among Havoc players of all levels going into the next expansion as to what it is we would like to see. My aim is to preempt any discussions that may take place pertaining to spec reworks and ideally get the changes needed for our spec to feel fun and relevant in all content.

Ask most Havoc players, and they’ll agree on one thing; Havoc is flawed. The reasons given may be different, but ultimately there is an agreement that Havoc is missing something.

Depending on how familiar you are with the game, this is either a spicy molten hot take, or one of the most obvious things on the planet. It lacks real secondary stat scaling[1], it doesn’t have a dedicated cleave spender[2], Mastery feels like a legitimate loss of power[3], and many would argue that First Blood being a talent is a crime against the spec. However, there is one major problem above all others that needs to be addressed.

The Metamorphosis Problem.

TL;DR – Demonic the talent and Metamorphosis the cooldown cannot coexist without some additional spell effect either empowering Metamorphosis the button to be significantly more powerful or another cooldown button being added to the spellbook.

Since Antorus, Metamorphosis the buff has had very high uptime for Havoc players. Seeing a Metamorphosis uptime of 50% or more is not uncommon in the average Havoc log for any given tier, except in rare instances where Momentum somehow pulls ahead. This is entirely due to Demonic, a talent that many would argue is fun, and some would argue should be baseline. However, this presents a problem; our only cooldown provides us the same buff that a talent does. This means that for Havoc to remain balanced, the possibility of Demonic being selected is likely always going to have to play a part in the tuning that Annihilation and Death Sweep receive, and consequently, it means that Metamorphosis cannot be too powerful on its own. With a cooldown of 4 minutes, that makes this button feel incredibly lackluster to press.

Ultimately this translates into a damage profile that must be very consistently high for it to remain competitive. On paper that may seem like a good thing; if Havoc always does good damage, it must always be good, right? Well, the reality of it is that this doesn’t work in practice. For Havoc to then do that damage it must also have very high uptime, and with how this game is designed – boss vulnerabilities or immunities, Keystone pull routes, arena, etc. – often you want very high damage in very concentrated windows, not spread over an entire fight. This problem has crippled Havoc for the past two expansions and is only becoming increasingly more obvious over time.

Keystone dungeon content has always been a sore spot for Havoc. Sure, on the overall it may look like it has done a decent amount damage, but where that damage is done is more important than the overall. Given the general strategy is to pull very large groups of dangerous mobs together and burst them down with CDs as quickly as possible, then kill smaller, less dangerous packs while waiting for those CDs to come back up, having no cooldowns makes it a hard sell. In Battle for Azeroth, Havoc got by because of Essences, Corruption, an overpowered Furious Gaze, and strong trinkets. Only one of those things are in Havoc’s base kit – albeit weakened – and as a result, it is extraordinarily unfavorable in most serious compositions when there aren’t external rental powers to fill that role. We don’t have the stopping power to kill the dangerous packs before our tanks get blown up, which means pulls have to be done slower, which ultimately inhibits how high Havoc is allowed to push.

Arena content also demonstrates this problem. For many players in lower brackets, Havoc is the noob stomper. To a lot of people, seeing they’re going up against a Havoc is frustrating. Havoc has a very low skill floor, and a low skill ceiling. This translates into very easy wins at lower MMR. The problem is that once you start going higher it becomes increasingly more obvious how to beat Havoc comps; control the Havoc, control the game. Havoc players do no damage when they’re sitting in roots, snares, traps, stuns, disarms, paralysis… you get the point. For Havoc to win, it needs to have very high uptime on a target to be applying its pressure. If they aren’t allowed uptime to apply this pressure, they’ll fall behind. Disregarding the possibility that you catch them in a stun with no blur and no trinket, if a Havoc player is spending most of the game not playing the game, you’ve already won.

Raiding is the one form of content people will say Havoc will always be strong in. As seen in Castle Nathria, that is not always the case. A consistent damage profile is undesirable in raid just as much as any other content. Between boss vulnerabilities where you want maximum burst, phases where you can’t hit the boss, and phases that need to be pushed fast because of their danger, consistency is not a strength. Sure, it will likely always have a spot in any raid composition because of Chaos Brand and Darkness, but as seen at the start of Shadowlands, Havoc can still end up on the bench completely in every single form of content when tuning falls short.

Now that I’ve highlighted the problem – Metamorphosis cannot be tuned like a burst cooldown as it is, and consistent damage is not ideal in most content – I’ll offer the solution. Realistically there are a few solutions I can recommend resolving this, but there are probably more that I have not considered.

  • The most obvious is to remove Demonic and tune Metamorphosis accordingly. The most hardline solution, and likely not one many in the Havoc community would like. Demonic is just as iconic as Metamorphosis at this point. People like being in demon form, so while I would personally be fine with this solution, many others might not.
  • Add another effect to Metamorphosis the cooldown to justify its continued existence. This would need to be incredibly powerful given a continued 3–4-minute cooldown on this button. Right now, the button feels like an extended Demonic window, not a powerful button that feels exciting to press. The downside to this solution is that the button itself is already overloaded, giving us a stun, a free mobility, an immunity frame, and 30 seconds of demon form.
  • Give Havoc another shorter cooldown at base with a recharge time exactly half that of Metamorphosis. Chaos Blades comes to mind, but realistically this can be anything you would want it to be if it allowed for Havoc to have a cooldown that felt good to press. This is probably the cleanest solution.

I hope that I managed to post this feedback ahead of any discussion on class reworks for the coming expansion. Please consider implementing this feedback. The other points I mentioned in the opening are certainly worth discussing too, however I felt that this point above all others needed to be discussed first. Thank you.

[1] To this point, even something as simple as making rank 2 of Chaos Strike increase your refund chance by your critical strike (so that it is 20% + Crit, which already massively diminishes in rating returns past 40%) and allowing Eye Beam to do more damage for every 1% crit would be a healthy change

[2] Glaive Tempest looked to fill this niche early in Shadowlands. It was changed so that it couldn’t.

[3] With a half or more of our damage being non-Chaos, our mastery cannot ever be strong. Felblade and Immolation Aura are 100% Fire, Demon Blades is 100% Shadow, Demon’s Bite and Death Sweep/Blade Dance are 100% Physical, etc.

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I admire youre post, truely. But if 9.2 tuning has taught me anything, Blizzard honestly doesn’t care about Demon Hunters. The lack of communication from ANYONE about ANYTHING not just about Havoc, but Vengeance as well is and was absolutely astounding. At this point, DH is just an afterthought if a thought at all…

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Doesn’t mean I don’t try to at least start a conversation. Yes it sucks that it seems like we’re not really ever given a chance to discuss our legitimate concerns with the spec with Blizzard, but giving up won’t work, either.

I agree, Demonic as a talent does not belong in Havoc. It plays counter to the base kit. The base kit of a Havoc Demon Hunter includes several movement abilities, which deal damage and can be talented to deal more. Demonic, as played in a raid (Venthyr with Agony Gaze) does not want to move.

My suggestion is to go further, not just remove a talent, but create an entire Specialization around the concept of high or permanent demonic form. Possibly even as a caster archetype.

So for Demon Hunter as a class;

  1. Vengeance for tanking, where Meta is a tanking cooldown.
  2. Havoc for mobility focused melee DPS, where Meta is a pure DPS cooldown.
  3. ‘Demonic’ for lower mobility magic DPS, where Meta is a high uptime or permanent effect.

Mastery’s effect could then be balanced upwards to be equally beneficial for Havoc. Currently if Mastery were buffed, it would greatly favor Demonic CS/Anni/Eye spam.

For new Havoc, Mastery could instead buff blade dance damage, and the spec should center around Blade Dance as a special frequent event replacing Chaos Strike. In place of Demonic, a talent could exist that allows Chaos Strike to cleave to multiple targets. Cycle of Hatred could instead be a chance to reset Blade Dance cooldown.

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Great post, Atrayen. I agree that all of these issues definitely need addressed.

One thing I would add:
AoE target count scaling needs to be made more consistent across classes. Havoc seems to excel when there are <= 5 targets, but falls behind badly in larger pulls.

The lack of strong cooldowns and stat scaling on our aoe abilities has a bit of a multiplicative effect with the target cap scaling.

The design issues need solved in order for havoc to scale correctly between casual content and hardcore content.
Increasing the scaling % of a stat or the attack power % of an ability will have a linear effect, when players are often relying on the combination of uncapped AoE, strong CDs, and secondary stats affecting their abilities, to get non-linear scaling in high keys.

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A large part of this is Eye Beam remaining scaled the way it is. Under no circumstances should Blind Fury be considered a Single Target talent, yet this expansion that is exactly how it is.

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I hate self-bumping because it feels scummy, but this is even more relevant due to the post today as a status update for the alpha; if you want feedback, this is the first and most brutally honest feedback I can disclose, and I sincerely hope the talent tree reflects improvements that the spec needs.

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Some people just dont understand whats wrong with our class man no matter how many times we preach it, its like talking to a wall

bump 10/char

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If you remove Demonic, I’m not playing the class.

I don’t play a Demonhunter to only be in demon form every 4 minutes or during the eyebeam animation. Turning into a demon is a huge part of the class fantasy.

I don’t give a rat’s a** about Momentum or garbage like forced displacement skills in a DPS rotation. They were a liability to monks with Chi Torpedo and removed for a good reason, and DH doesn’t need that garbage holding them down as well.

I also can’t believe people keep asking for a caster spec. No. The demonic caster is called a warlock. The demonhunter uses glaives and is a demonic supersoldier.

They can’t even balance or design Havoc as a spec, and you’re asking they add another spec into the mix when they haven’t fixed the half baked one we already have?

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I addressed this within one sentence of my ideas;

It is in theory one solution, though, which is why I even offered it.

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If we’re a demon most of the time, it’s not that iconic.

Meta cannot be a good cooldown while it’s effect is up 50-75% of the fight due to Demonic.

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It is precisely iconic. It’s what Illidan is in literally 100% of his time.

Meta can be a good cooldown just like Pillar of Frost and Demonic Tyrant and Infernal are for DK’s and Warlocks despite their high uptimes as well.

Meta doesn’t suck because it has high uptime. It sucks because Blizzard made it a lame cooldown from the very beginning that doesn’t interact with your other talented abilities or any active ability you may gain from an Xpac system. It literally affects 2 of your abilities total. Not eyebeam, not glaive tempest, not felblade, not immolation aura, not fel barrage or essence break. It was lazy design in legion, and it is lazy design now.

Demo warlock meta was in all ways a much better implementation gameplay wise, and they couldn’t be bothered to port that to DH.

So we can just accept meta is not a spectacular cd, reduce its duration and cd to 2-3 minutes, and return Chaos Blades as the true high burst CD to DH which they pruned for no reason.

And not every class needs to be turned into a 3 min cd class anyways to have good throughput. That’s something Blizzard can fix. Shadow priests in Legion managed to be incredibly powerful in EN and even post-rework in Castle Nathria despite not revolving around long cd burst windows. So has Affliction, and it was only when they moved their damage away into the Darkglare+Deathbolt window that the spec went down the drains.

Havoc can be made to do good damage without having powerful CD’s. The will just has to be there by the designers.

demonic is iconic tho. it just the issue of demonic hindering meta as a cd. which can be fixed by adding another actual cd.

boom. the other options are also good.

Here is my two copper on the subject…

  • Felblade should be baseline for both specs
  • Demonic should be returned to 8 seconds duration

For Havoc specifically…

  • Talents: Blind Fury, Demonic Appetite, Insatiable Hunger, Burning Hatred, Glaive Tempest, Trail of Ruin, Cycle of Hatred, First Blood
  • Covenant: The Hunt
  • Soubinds: Growing Inferno, Viscous Ink, Felfire Haste
  • Anima Powers: Cadaverous Eye
  • Shadowlands Legendaries: Collective Anguish, Darkglare Medallion, Blazing Slaughter, Burning Wound
  • Azerite Traits: Seething Power, Revolving Blades
  • Artefact Traits: Inner Demons, Chaotic Onslaught
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Soooo little confused, is this your wishlist for talents? or is it just, naming abilities, because your not stating that =/

Talent wishlist. Havoc has had many traits from various sources that, if used together, would prove to be extremely useful. :smiley:

Blazing Slaughter is anything short of useful, just throwing that out there, Revolving Blades though… That will make BD fun again

Don’t both of those examples have other cooldowns to supplement their need for burst?

A cooldown that has high uptime cannot be tuned to also fulfill a burst niche, otherwise that becomes way too strong.

That said, I’m not arguing for Demonic’s removal, only highlighting that - as it is - it cannot coexist with Metamorphosis if we want to have a burst cooldown all other things held constant.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Demonic being made baseline with 8 secs of meta, meta being made a 2 min cd with half the duration, and putting in chaos blades/revamped nemesis that isn’t target bound as the true burst cd at 2 min cd.

I just want frequent access to my demonic super soldier form.

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