Havoc spec bonuses

Classes Demon Hunter
82

The reason why sd was nerfed was because people constantly complained about it, because prior to the nerfs, sd/coh was still the play, so they complained about it, until it was nerfed to the point where it no longer was. Demonic was too, to a degree.

And no, frost dk is FAR, FAR! Worse than sd/coh havoc, havoc is in line with other cdr specs with how much they lose without uptime.

That’s like saying that dnd for frost dk/unholy, is just as bad as consecration is for prot paladin, it’s clearly FALSE.

You lose some damage if you’re not inside dnd, but if you’re not inside consecration as prot paladin, your spec is basically gimped, borderline non functional.

Much in the same way, if you have to move away with breath and lose the cd at like 20 seconds of breath, you effectively can never recoup that cost, because unlike dh, breath is a 2 min cd with no cdr, but it’s damage is purely based on a cde mechanic, there is no upfront value, everything is dependent on uptime on target. It’s not even like voidform where you have a cde mechanic, but you sill get at least 20 seconds of voidform.

If you lose 10 seconds of uptime on havoc with coh/sd, it’s frankly not that bad. It’s not like your damage on that fight is forever doomed.

But please do keep telling me about how i’m wrong. Spoiler alert, as usual i am not, and you guys are just overreacting.

83

That’s just a cope because i exposed this little farce of yours, and your compatriots.

People said they like the tier set in general.

And now that i exposed this logical inconsistency now you’re like: Oh that was never what we suggested!

Seriously, just shut it.

The irony of talking about how cdr/cde are the worst thing in the world, but then you like a set that focuses on cdr/cde mechanics, but it’s on the hunt so “that’s different” embarrassing. It’s almost like you’re just cherry picking.

84

Pretty sure you’re trolling at this point.

Sure, whatever bud, keep pushing your own agenda. Not like I care.

Most of the community has been very vocal against CoH and SD, you’re not going to change that now with your laughable attempts at gaslighting people.

85

Nice argument you’re got there. Just another logical fallacy as per usual. Something i’m used to anyway, when people fail to convince me with their garbage points that tends to happen, maybe you should think a little more and make an actually good argument.

I’m not gaslighting anyone, i’m just saying what is actually the truth, and exposing logical inconsistencies.

But please, do stop talking to me, i’m frankly tired of your bs.

86

you know sd and coh is only .6% behind on sim dps right?

simulationcraft org/reports/T31_Raid.html

and for a time it was the best simming build by 1%.

87

Yes i know, i was never arguing about performance, the point was always about design, and especially about cherry picking, and exaggerating problems.

The problem i have with these arguments is not that “coh/sd is weaker” The problem i have with these arguments is cherry picking, and making illogical/inconsistent arguments, or just greatly exaggerating the problem in order to make the point more believable.

These are the actual problems, and i explained why it’s mostly bs.

Cdr/cde is only a big problem in specific situations, all the rest is exaggerated bs, these people trying to say that coh/sd is so bad either don’t know wtf they are talking about, or are making the problem seem bigger than it is for the sake of making the argument seem more believable. Ill point out examples of bad cdr/cde mechanics:

1: breath of sindragosa
2: Icy propulsion in shadowlands.

Why are they bad? They are bad for a very similar reason.

Breath has no upfront value, and it’s damage is fully dictated by the extension of breath without any way to reduce the cooldown on breath. This is bad because breath is a significant portion of your damage and if you so much as lose a couple of seconds you’re screwed and will lose a very significant portion of your damage. Ironically, breath would be better if consuming runic power would reduce the cd on breath so even if you have to move, you won’t lose as much because it will be back sooner than it otherwise would. Or, they could simply remove the cd and make it work like voidform did in legion for s priest which is probably a better option.

As for propulsion, in shadowlands the cdr only worked if you were inside icy veins, i don’t think i need to explain more, if you have a functional brain you should understand why this is a problem. This was rectified in dragonflight and the cdr was made to work even outside of icy veins, eventually it was removed with the rework, but frost plays better anyway so it’s not too bad to lose propulsion. We still have thermal void on frost mage, and honestly propulsion would actually work quite well, especially now.

But aside mechanics like these, cdr/cde is not nearly as big of a problem as many wanna make it out to be. And if you disagree… You are wrong, it doesn’t matter how good of a player you are or you think you are, you could be a world first raider. You’re still wrong, and you’re exaggerating the point for shock value, and for making it seem like it’s a bigger deal than it actually is because YOU do not like the mechanic for whatever reason. End of story.

88

This is exactly how CoH and SD work as well.

You lose uptime → You are not able to spend fury → You are not able to extend Meta / lower the CD of EB → You drop out of Meta → You lose obscene amounts of damage because Havoc is tuned around that Meta uptime.

This ends up being exactly what you said, that Meta has no upfront value because we’re tuned around being on it and hitting the boss for 4 minutes straight without losing uptime.

That’s how it was in Legion S3 when FG was first introduced, and that’s how it was in Shadowlands once we got Sinful Brand and DGB + Venthyr legendary. We already had a taste of it, it was not good.

Stop trying to make it different, they are not. Literally all CD extension mechanics only end up flattening profiles and increasing the punishment of the spec for losing uptime. All of them.

Getting two of them at the same time only makes the problem even worse.

Also, if you’re starting to throw around the “you’re not a good player” card, I suggest you start showing your background, because you’ve not exactly proven your background either.

Is it possible for a flat profile build with CoH and SD to thrive? Of course, but it relies on it being objectively overtuned. If you’re going to mention Outlaw, yes, Outlaw is overtuned in my eyes atm. I rather not take the risk now that the spec is finally fun to play and rewarding after all of these years.

1 Like
89

This guy gets it and oddly enough, your take aligns with the general consensus shared by people that main DH.
This Lenegis guy is either wrong or a troll doing his best to plant misinformation and sow dissent to ruin the way the class plays. Which is in a good spot right now. Easy to pick up, hard to master. If none of the above, play a class you enjoy and stop being salty that, though exceeding vocal, you are in the minority and we disagree.

91

You just ignored the actual argument.

Meta, demonic/cod/sd are not even close to breath/Old icy propulsion.

You don’t know wtf you are talking about. First of all, meta does have upfront value, even if you screw up everything don’t even press a single ability, you will have at least 20 seconds of meta, unlike breath, breath value is COMPLETELY dependent on runic power/rune usage.

If you are outside of icy veins you would get NO CDR AT ALL. if you lost breath, that’s 2 MIN DOWNTIME. If you are outside of meta, YOU JUST LOSE SOME UPTIME ON META BUT THE CDR SILL WORKS. And you can quite quickly get another window, the same cannot be said for the other 2 examples, hence why I POINTED OUT, they were/are badly designed.

The problem is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME. SD/COH is just like any other cdr/cde mechanic, it’s HARDRLY problematic. And if you think otherwise, you don’t know wtf you’re talking about.

This is not a matter of opinion or prospective, you are manipulating the argument to make it seem like the problem is bigger than it is.

Also notice how i was the one doing the thinking all the time, you guys are just replying to what i already said, or you’re just making logical fallacies, and stupid arguments like “looks like this guy doesn’t know how to play, or this guy is a troll” As if that’s an argument, you should be ashamed of yourselves for having such poor argumentative skills, embarrassing. Spoiler alert, you’re wrong on that too, i am far above the average player.

You’re only making the problem seem bigger than how i explained, when i already debunked it in my original comment.

Seriously, stop talking, and actually think. Pseudo intellectuals like you seriously get on my nerves, not gonna lie. The utter lack of capacity to think is just annoying. Or maybe you’re purposefully avoiding the argument, and just saying whatever you want, that’s probably even worse.

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92

YES !!! Please LET US FLY … Dragon Kin and Druids Get to fly, we have wings also… LET US USE THEM FOR THEIR PURPOSE!!

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93

I think we should get to Customize our DH how we want, like the druids… We should also get to fly!!!

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94

dh really really needs more customization in the next expansion, permanent wings or something.

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95

Loosen that fedora and lighten up bud.
Your big brain opinion is just that: an opinion.
While good for single target boss fights, it sucks for every other type of engagement. For mythic+ where aoe and swapping to interrupt you’re at a disadvantage.
In PvP where you are constantly swapping KT, stunning, interrupting, incapacitating your build is useless.
I have no idea what your actual point is. My gut tells me you’re a troll because your don’t comment with your “above average” DH (and won’t because you know people would flame you for it being mediocre) and your character you do use to comment is level 10.
Frankly, it’s impossible to ascertain your point because all you do write much and say little…and what you do say has this air of insufferable condescension.
I speculate you want the set bonus to enhance a style of play that only you enjoy and that only works well(ish) in long fights against single targets.
Which the player base doesn’t enjoy and goes against the multi-target aoe burst role that has been the bread and butter of the spec since its inception.
Comment on your DH lend some credibility to your super hot take or stay quiet while the real big dogs scholars do important things on behalf of all like campaigning for character flight and more customization

96

Maybe if you were to read, you would understand the argument.

Do you not speak English? Or do you just lack the capacity to think? The latter seems more likely, but that just makes you similar to the vast majority of people, so don’t beat yourself too hard for it.

If you lack the capacity to think, understand etc, then stop talking to me, iv’e already explained the point more than once, i even went pretty in depth about it, and made examples, if you still cannot understand then shut it, don’t talk to me. How’s that for trolling? If this is the level of argument you understand than so be it.

That’s about all. Stop bothering me with your lack of critical thinking.

97

I just don’t understand whining about an old mechanic (that rational folks never liked) that only sort of works for boss fights (on a character you clearly don’t play). As clearly evident by the opinion itself and the fact you won’t switch off your level 10 Shammy to comment. You are a troll. I have a feeling you’re the same one from MMO Champ that complains about literally everything Blizzard does and sucks the fun out of a forum. If not, he’s your doppelgänger and you should reach out and make friends with a kindred, fellow long winded and pompous, forum ruiner. It’d be like Kyle’s dad meeting Denmark lmao

98

I just don’t understand why you keep talking to me.

If you lack the capacity to understand the argument stop talking to me.

You’re making an awful lot of assumptions, maybe you should actually make an argument, one that wasn’t already debunked.

Oh but that would require a modicum of brain usage, something that’s above the average normie like you.

How’s that for a troll post? How about you actually read what i said before, and if you don’t understand the argument, stop talking to me, what i said is not a matter of subjectivity, it’s objectively true. I didn’t just make the argument, i made the counterargument with examples, and debunked it, that’s how far above i am compared to you, maybe you should write a note about it, as an example on what to do.

And if you disagree you don’t know wtf you are talking about.

99

You’ve yet to make a compelling argument for anything yet. In all your many, many comments.
Outside of your deserving the centerfold spot for forum-troll monthly of course.

Can you rebuff any of my statements or argue against any of my points in the previous message? No?
K, see ya later troll

100

Sure buddy, i guess that’s what you’re gonna tell yourself.

What point? Where is your point in that drivel exactly? You don’t have one, you didn’t explain a damn thing, you didn’t make a single example, I DID EVERYTHING, i explained the problem , i explained where it’s a problem, i made examples of bad abilities, and i explained why sd/coh are just like any other cdr/cde mechanic that is hardly problematic, and that you people are just greatly exaggerating the problem because YOU don’t personally like the ability, despite the actual facts. Even just the fact that the current tier set is liked despite having cdr on the hunt is completely against everything you guys say, but i guess uptime is only a problem " if i decide it is". Logic doesn’t seem to be your strong suit it seems.

All you said effectively boils down to : This guy is a troll, and i bet he’s bad at the game.

Is that your argument? That’s not an argument buddy, that’s garbage. That’s the level of “discussion” that i expect from the average pseudo intellectual normie. In other words, it’s not an argument, it’s just a mess of logical fallacies and non arguments. You say those kinds of things because you don’t have what it takes to actually construct an argument with actual points, doing that requires to actually think, something that’s clearly not the strong suit of people like you.

Now please, leave me alone, unless you actually use that brain i don’t really wanna read what you say, honestly, that’s my fault too, because i can’t help giving myself an aneurysm reading the bs that you, and people like you spout as if it’s gospel on a almost daily basis.

Seriously, either think stuff through, or stop talking.

101

This guy is unhinged lmao!
Talks about how he’s so smart and all the “normies” just couldn’t possibly understand the complexity of your bad take. All the while being either too smooth brained to know how to or too cowardly to swap onto his “above average” DH, which he probably doesn’t even have because he’s a simple unhinged troll.
Doesn’t understand what people like about season 3. It’s the reapplication of glaives. The CDR is different too because it’s on a more worthwhile ability. Man up and show us your DH or close that smart mouth of your’s around your chicken tendies. They getting cold and you getting cranky my dude.

102

Nice argument there. On a more worthwhile ability? The f are you even talking about? Also doesn’t that point kinda go against your argument? If the cdr is on a more “meaningful ability” In other words “it does more damage” Because that’s basically all that you people are concerned about, that would mean that uptime is more important than ever, going against your whole point. You can’t even see this logical fault in your argument yet you wanna talk smack? Embarrassing, for you that is.

Also, that’s pretty wrong regardless, the hunt only does more damage per ability execute, in reality eye beams provides more overall damage either directly or indirectly, so your point is wrong on all fronts, it’s wrong logically and factually.

No one really talked about how they like the set because “glaive”, people said i like the set in general, the reason why you have to point this out now is because i pointed out the inconsistency in your argument, so now you and others are trying to retroactively make it seem like the argument was always “just about glaives”, when it really wasn’t.

This can be substantiated by the fact that you said “cdr on a more meaningful ability” meaning that you don’t really have a problem with cdr as long as you like the ability/mechanic, but the fact that you basically admitted that what i was saying is right, is something that you probably didn’t realize yourself, yet another example of the poor thinking skills of you and your compatriots.

Finally, let me translate your “argument” from bs to English:

I cherry pick data to fit the argument i wanna say while ignoring other data that doesn’t support my point or is directly against what i’m trying to say. In other words, you’re nothing but a pseudo intellectual normie, that cannot even construct an argument, because the points you make literally deconstruct each other.

Anyway that’s it for me, you demonstrated again and again that you just don’t have what it takes to think stuff through.

This will be the last reply to you as far as i am concerned. “smooth brained” get out of here. There is something smooth here, certainly isn’t me. You’re way too unskilled to start debating me on an intellectual level dude. I provided the argument, the counter argument, i talked about what is a problem, and what is exaggerated bs, you’ve got absolutely nothing on me, and the fact that you basically said that “i’m stupid” First of all, i really don’t care about the words of people i have 0 respect for, your “insult” is so irrelevant that i won’t even bother reporting it, second of all, no, YOU don’t know wtf you are talking about. In fact, i don’t even think what you are saying are your own words, you are probably just regurgitating the points that other people made. Which is just pathetic.

And one last thing, first of all, i will not show you my character as i am not stupid, and i’m not gonna put myself in the crossfire, paint a target on my back, just to prove a point, you and the others are not that important, don’t flatter yourself. Second, you better be careful when you talk smack, iv’e taken a peek at your logs, and i have to say… I am very unimpressed. At least you should be good if you wanna trash talk.