Thanks, i was worried there wasn’t a single dh who found the rotation boring haha
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And this, my friends, is a prototypical example of confirmation bias at work. As long as one other person agrees, all of those that disagree, and all of their arguments as to why they disagree, are completely and entirely irrelevant.
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Despite saying “what do you guys think?” in his original post, Haugs was never actually open to dissenting views. He just wanted everyone to nod and say, “yeah, those are good ideas.” Arrogance combined with a need for praise.
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Along with the ignorance to think his claims of a “mythic raider” holds credibility past recent carries as his meta chieves show Haugs is nothing else from that fact.
Do you only reply when someone agrees with you at this point?
Why open a discussion thread then?
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Metamorphosis definitely needs something. Right now it’s a boring CD. You really should feel demonic in that form.
I have no idea why you’re so upset about this. this is an opinionated thread. I gave my opinion. People gave dissenting opinions, and to them i said “okay”.
Now someone enters the thread who agrees with me, and i say “cool, thanks”.
Chill out? /yawn
A lot of people complain about inflammatory comments in this thread. Please actually reread the posts made by this guy, specifically because he was the very first person to comment.
Think people got upset because I mentioned there aren’t a lot of current mythic raiders or high mmr arena players in this thread, and many are going back to past experience. Well, I’m not talking about dh’s in the past. I’m talking about them as they exist now, and it’s a reality that most people playing in higher levels of gameplay laugh at the simplicity of the havoc dh.
When people start to bring up micro-management things like souls, not overcapping fury, and such, the reasoning is faulty because every single class has micro-management considerations. What other classes have that we don’t is what I’ve already commented on multiple times.
We are lacking fundamental complexity, and a synergistic toolkit when you don’t include talents. The issue with requiring talents to give us synergy is that taking one talent means we don’t take another. Without talents, our basic toolkit is demon’s bite, blade dance, chaos strike, and eye beam. They have no interaction with each other.
If i take demonic appetite, chaos strike generates souls. Again, that has no interaction with any other abilities.
It does have synergy, however, if I have the eyes of rage essence. So, for our abilities to have synergy, a niche essence is required. Also, taking demonic appetite means i lose the only chance at having a proc-able ability. Felblade is a great ability; it generates fury, and it’s a gap-closer that has meaning in rotation. But, I typically won’t take it, because I have to take a different talent that is enhanced by an essence.
Immolation is a great ability. It should be baseline, not talented.
What I’ve been complaining about all along is that we don’t have synergistic and meaningful baseline abilities that are further and better augmented by our talents. We currently have a nothing fundamental toolkit, and talents (and essences) are necessary to give it any semblance of synergy.
A rotation should have a fundamental degree of complexity and synergy, and talents should enhance that and provide interesting ways to augment the rotation and make it feel more interactive and meaningful. Talents and essences should not be necessary for a class’s toolkit to make sense in and of itself.
You should consider DH’s in the past as many of the very experienced players have recently dropped out, while you’ve only the one tier of mythic progression, and account wide AotC experience that is laughable.
So you really should consider all opinions on the matter, instead of the ignorance behind your confirmation bias where experienced players have analysed your suggestions.
You’ve repeated your point multiple times to the point your posts are just toxic.
Yes, I decided to start raiding mythic this patch because i want to experience this part of the game as well. My history has been in arena, and while playing actively i’ve been 2.4k+ every season, which means I have experience in the higher tiers of gameplay in multiple seasons.
In this current raid tier, i’ve parsed above 90 on a few boss fights already, and that’s before getting all my benthic gear. To clarify what this means, it means I play the class well.
What I’m talking about right now is how the havoc demon hunter rotation feels right now. “Right now” means in this current raid tier, and in this current pvp season.
If I’ve come across as dismissive to others’ opinions, that’s one thing, but your attitude is aggressive, to say the least. In addition, you’re posting on a dk with your armory hidden.
You didn’t just “come across” as dismissive. You openly and explicitly dismissed the opinions of anyone that wasn’t playing at the top end currently. Let me remind you:
The problem with that is that you yourself have only been playing at that top end this tier. The majority of DHs in this thread have been raiding on their DHs, often at a mythic level, for many or all of the tiers since DH was initially released. You don’t get to scoff at those opinions simply because you decided to get carried in mythic this tier, and the rest of us have gotten tired of the BS and stepped back from burnout.
You flat out stated that opinions from DHs not currently engaged in “higher levels of gameplay” were not something you were interested in reading. So, you also don’t get to play the victim card here.
Because you openly dismissed any opinion that didn’t align with yours. You didn’t engage with them or counter them on their merits, you dismissed them as coming from DHs that you (laughably) judged to be of insufficient experience level for their opinions to be relevant. Trying to play the victim card about that and say “man, it’s just my opinion!!1!” is a middle-school level gimmick to dodge criticism of your position.
You can’t contest criticism on merits, so you (shallowly) attack the credentials of arguer, or try to hide behind it being your opinion and therefore somehow magically immune to criticism (news flash, to you and any others that think that: just because it is your opinion doesn’t make it innately immune to criticism. You have a right to your opinion, even if it’s a stupid one. The instant you espouse that opinion, however, you innately open it up to criticism and ridicule. That’s literally how dialogue works, get used to it).
So ya, we’re pretty much dismissing what you’re saying too, because you clearly have nothing of substance to offer in defense of it.
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“I guess I’m not getting nearly as many replies replies from demon hunters who participate in higher levels of gameplay” is not a flat out dismissal of opinions. It’s an accurate observation.
You seem very sensitive on this particular comment. It was a comment I made once, and again, it was an observation.
I’ll say again. I’ve played @ 2.4k+ arena virtually every season of legion, and have also been at minimum 2.2k+ in bfa while playing intermittently every single season as well. I’m back up to 2.4k+ this season, and hope to be much more active and push much higher rating.
90+ parses is not “getting carried”. The “getting carried” comments are also hearsay. That’s an off-putting, and incorrect comment.
If you’re tired of it, why are you in a demon hunter thread talking about the current rotation.
Please quote me on the comment in which i “Flat out” said that.
This is a misrepresentation. I have already said multiple times there isn’t anything to disprove. If I say I’m bored with a rotation, and someone else says they’re not, it’s not something for me to argue with. my initial question was effectively a yes / no question.
Again, there’s nothing about an opinion to criticize. An opinion is an opinion. My OP was offering some ideas and things i thought might make the rotation more engaging. That was open to criticism. Whether you currently find the rotation engaging or not is not open to criticism. That is an opinion.
Ultimately the point I’ve wanted to make is as below. The thread derailed to dispute the ideas i had with regard to modifications to the rotation, then further went awry when people honed in on my observation. Below is the issue.
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I’m unable to verify this, and even if I could, I don’t regard PvP as a very authoritative source for commentary on rotational difficulty. It’s a very different animal, PvP.
Link your logs, because you have exactly one publicly viewable log, which was a 57% on Queen’s Court this last Wednesday.
Because I rather hope the game improves from the slogfest it currently is, and I don’t want to see my class destroyed by people like you trying to turn it into something it’s not.
No, opinions can still very much be wrong, based in poor reasoning, or otherwise flimsy. Just because it’s your opinion doesn’t shield it from criticism. We can’t force you to change your opinion, and I personally wouldn’t even if I did have such power (it’d be unethical), but that doesn’t mean we can’t call a silly opinion silly.
And most of us did offer criticism of your original ideas, criticism you simply ignored.
Also, again, we have full rights to criticism the basis of your opinion. But whether a rotation is “engaging” isn’t just an opinion, it is a feeling. Feelings cannot be criticized on merits, because they are inherently non-rational. They are, however, also generally considered inadmissible to sane debate for that very same reason. So which is it, do you want us to hold your feeling to the same standard we do most statements in a debate, or do you want it shielded from that? Because if you want it shielded from that, it becomes irrelevant to the discussion. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Thing is, most people were agreeing with your fundamental point. What we had a problem with was 1) your ideas for “fixing” it, and 2) the dismissive tone you took with anyone that wasn’t actively raiding mythic this very second, despite your own near-complete lack of experience with mythic raiding.
Now, for specific merits, I’ve been arguing for a while that First Blood and Demonic should be baseline. That would add a low-CD ability to the rotation, and a burst window synergy from Eye Beam to Chaos Strike and Blade Dance (especially the latter, since meta buffs Blade Dance more than twice as much as it does Chaos Strike). That alone would put the baseline rotation in what I consider to be a fairly solid place.
That said, DH, along with DK, was specifically designed with the “hero class” starting experience in mind. Unlike other classes, these classes start with the majority of their abilities and gain their first few talent tiers extremely rapidly. Blizzard, in both cases, tends to build the baseline kit with these first few talent tiers in mind, since the player has access to them within the first hour of gameplay on the class.
One could argue that this is an inferior design, and I’m inferring that you’re making this argument. I was simply explaining the reasoning I’ve observed from Blizzard on the topic. One specific liability this design grants is that the potential to introduce additional complexity is reduced, because one only has 3-5 talent tiers to do so rather than the full 7 (and generally at least 2 of their tiers are purely utility for each class).
Our 106 and 110 tiers are really the only ones that can introduce noteworthy levels of complexity, and they have solid options for that. First Blood livens up the base rotation, Dark Slash adds a DPS-window mechanic, Demonic adds a different DPS-window mechanic (that notably synergizes with several other talents, like Immolation Aura, Blind Fury, and First Blood), and Momentum adds considerable complexity to the baseline rotation in general. The first few tiers are really just concerned with bumping us up to a “normal” level of complexity, and they can get away with that because we have those tiers almost as soon as we start.
That said, Shadowlands, in theory, holds promise in that regard. The rumor is that DHs and DKs will no longer be starting at very high levels, and instead starting at either 1 or perhaps 10. If that’s the case, the existing talent tiers and baseline kit will have to be adjusted to not be as hollow. But then, DH is already in the odd spot of being the only class in the game with nothing really to “unprune”, since we’re the only class designed since The Great Pruning.
Personally, I’m fairly hopeful. Blizzard knows that class design and talent balance is a very sore point with the player base right now, so they’ll be devoting extra attention to it in Shadowlands. They clearly have had the majority of their devs working on Shadowlands for the majority of the time BfA has been out so far, so hopefully we don’t have more enhancement/marksmanship “we ran out of time” BS near the end of beta like we did in BfA. But we’ll have to see.
One thing I know for certain, however, is that I definitely do not want to see:
- An additional resource bar (unless it’s soul fragments, since those are already a quasi-resource for us).
- Removal of Demon’s Bite.
- An spriest/Breath of Sindragosa constant drain mechanic.
- A short-CD based rotation (ala Retribution, Enhancement) or one metered by passive resource generation (ala most every other melee).
- A rotation too heavily steeped in RNG (Enhancement, Outlaw, Frost (both of them), etc).
unfortunately I server transferred and returned to my original name i’ve kept since cataclysm. With that, my logs disappeared. While heroic and mythic are not comparable, my heroic logs are legendary on this character. This week, we extended our raid lock to queen’s court, so we skipped over the first five bosses when i otherwise would’ve been able to have logs posted. I’ll be raiding mythic this week, and should have parses posted. Check back then. For QC itself, our comp was less than ideal (we had far more melee than most would on a clear). It’s not a melee friendly fight, and with as many melee as we had and me still lacking a few key pieces of benthic gear, i’m fine with 57%.
I don’t want to destroy it either. But, presently, the core damaging toolkit of a Demon Hunter is not well-designed. I’m open to criticism regarding the ideas I had. Some may not have been written well, others (such as the dual-resource idea) I could see not being well-received no matter what. I’m all for that. They were simply ideas in the interest of pointing out what other classes have that we don’t, and why those types of abilities are more engaging than what we currently have.
Opinions can be wrong assuming we’re talking about an objective concept with a clear answer. Is 2+2 = 4? Yes. If your “opinion” is that it’s three, you’d be wrong.
Reasoning behind an opinion can be wrong as well, certainly. However, no one really attacked my reasoning behind my belief that the class isn’t well-designed. moreso, people responded with criticisms to the ideas i had as solutions. This is fine, but is not the same as disputing my reasons for finding the class boring. I’m almost tempted to delete that entire section of the OP in the hopes it might shift responses to what really matters.
This is a fair point. I can see how it came off as elitest, and for that I do apologize, to you and everyone else.
If so, the cooldown reduction of eye beam from eyes of rage should also be baseline. This would at least somewhat alleviate my complaint that, as a baseline, our abilities do not synergize with each other.
Yes, and no. When dk’s started in wrath, they had access to three essences, two different diseases that needed to be pressed at start of fight, along with several more abilities. Granted, this was before the prune, but the point is they still started with a lot of their fundamental toolkit.
If I were create a frost dk right now (I use frost Dk because their rotation is also considered to be relatively simple), as an example, it would already have frost strike, obliterate, and howling blast. Talents aren’t required for these abilities, and they already synergize because of runic empowerment (which is available upon character creation). They have their two resources, and the core rotation is established without any talents necessary, and the way they synergize is clear. Remorseless winter is learned @ 57. The talents serve to augment / enhance the ability priority rotation or the way the abilities interact with each other, but there is a core rotation and synergy that is present upon character creation. DH’s don’t have that.
First blood doesn’t really “liven up the base rotation”. In reality, it causes us to press a button we otherwise wouldn’t press unless to dodge or in aoe circumstances. Dark slash would otherwise invalidate blade dance. This talent tier either makes blade dance relevant, or removes it from our core rotation altogether. That being said, I do very much like the idea of dark slash. I wish it were redesigned altogether and baked into our core rotation.
While a fun talent, it’s terribly designed, and is currently not viable in any aspect of gameplay.
Not a rumor, this is what’s happening. I agree with your optimism in this regard.
my primary grievance with demon’s bite as it exists now is it’s a “get fury spend fury” design. Our rotation is essentially blade dance off cooldown, chaos strike if we have fury, demon’s bite if we don’t. It’s just so uncreative and there’s a lot of room for improvement by either adding an effect to demon’s bite, or giving us a more synergistic toolkit.
Yet you call for other player’s opinion while ignoring others that have much, much more experience than you…
Again, your PvE progress is a complete joke, and again, passed of opinions from players who are simply better than you, as of they did not matter.
So you should not be surprised at this stage, that those who are experienced have now walked away from you, and dismissing your actions.
As for your thought on how to improve the spec, they’re trash.
HDH is intentionally simple.
Because of your confirmation bias, you remain ignorant of a class that is not what you want it to be…
Enjoy the carries 
We’re done 
Hallelujah. You’ve said nothing of value this entire thread. Please leave 
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If the CDR proposal does not also include Demonic Appetite (that remaining a talent, or disappearing entirely), then sure. That, or it shifting from being something from consuming souls to a proc off Chaos Strike directly. I really hate the positional world object mechanism of Demonic Appetite, and I’m very reluctant to put anything additional on that mechanism, or even to retain what we currently have tied to it.
But starting Frost DKs lack Rime, which is what makes Howling Blast actually useful in single-target (aside from the disease application, which doesn’t really do anything synergistic since they removed the disease scaling from Obliterate). It’s also worth noting that the baseline kit lacks a strong Runic generator to smooth out the rotation, with that instead being provided by the 57 talent tier.
As for the comparison to pre-WoD DK, I feel it’s a bit inapplicable, because, as you note, that was pre-prune. DHs are the only class that was designed post-prune, so our baseline kit is much sparser than other classes as a result. Talents shore that up, which again, can be argued as bad design (and I don’t necessarily disagree).
It shifts the rotation from being nearly entirely pure generate/consume, to at least have an ability we press on CD aside from that. It doesn’t bring it up to level, imo, but it definitely helps.
Blade Dance isn’t part of our core rotation to start with, it only gets added if First Blood is present. Regardless of talent selection on that tier, Blade Dance is still used on CD in AoE circumstances. I’m not quite sure what your point with this was, tbh.
As for Dark Slash, I’m not a huge fan of those vulnerability period mechanics. On its own, it’s probably fine, but with included alongside Demonic, with 2/3rds the CD, I find it extremely problematic. Having one burst period ability is fine, two is just annoying.
That’s not the fault of Demon’s Bite, though. Now, perhaps I get a bit prickly when it comes to people suggesting removing Demon’s Bite, but part of that comes from having more than half of Legion stuck in Demon Blades land, and the very regular suggestions to make Demon Blades baseline and Demon’s Bite the talent. I much prefer the active agency on generation (and the GCD-locked rotation) that comes from Demon’s Bite. Very nearly every single other melee in the game uses a passive resource generation model, and I’m rather keen to keep Havoc as an active-generation model.
I wouldn’t necessarily contest having some additional synergy beyond simple resources in there, but I don’t think it actually necessary, as long as something is added to the rotation as a whole. Every ability doesn’t need to have synergy, and there’s nothing innately wrong with a simple generator (ex. Steady Shot) or a simple spammable consumer (ex. Arcane Shot), as long as the rotation as a whole has some degree of complexity.
So I think I generally agree with what you are trying to accomplish, just not how you are proposing to do it. Havoc definitely is a bit simplisitic, and especially so baseline (though baseline hardly matters, no one plays without talents). The issue is that most specs are fairly simple these days, and getting simpler by the expansion. Blizzard seems to be developing purely with casuals in mind. It’s quite unfortunate, tbh.
Right, so one of our core abilities that we’re given is not a part of our core regular rotation unless talented. if it’s not talented, it’s eye beam, chaos strike, demon’s bite. That’s sad times.
Sure, but they get rime as a passive ability a few levels later. It’s not something they have to talent into. They’re given a base toolkit that has a semblance of synergy, and some of the proc mechanics are given over time as they level up. Makes sense to me. They would still want to cast howling blast without rime to apply the dot.
Right, and without it, and with our base toolkit, it would be a pure generate / consume. That’s terrible design when we’re talking end-game. We shouldn’t have to spec into a talent to press more than two buttons (excluding eye beam pressed once every 30).
Not to sound antagonistic at this point. I think we both agree, as you point out later on.
Agreed. Having an eye beam burst window and a dark slash window would feel cluttered. the cooldowns wouldn’t align, and dark slash would be an additional global we just wouldn’t want to press. That being said, the fact that they’re available and not mutually exclusive reflects bad design.
I think where we disagree is that I don’t necessarily care if it’s an active / passive resource generation, provided that every single one of my gcd’s is actually occupied. Demons blade is a much more popular pvp talent, but i want to bash my head on the wall sometimes when i’m waiting for fury to do something. Those are empty-gcd windows, and I agree that I don’t ever want to be in a situation where I feel like I’m waiting on rng to do anything. However, I also want gcd’s to feel more meaningful. If demon’s bite were to be given a proc mechanic of any sort, such as causing your next immolation aura’s cd to be reset, or causing blade dance / chaos strike to have any sort of modifier, it would feel more meaningful to cast the ability other than as a filler. When I even bring up removing demon’s bite, it’s because i think there’s room for more meaningful abilities to be cast, and that the rotation could be built in such a way that we would be gcd-locked with abilities that are more fun than “get fury in a global”. Give demon’s bite a proc mechanic, or give us 1-2 more abilities that keep us gcd-locked and synergize with each other in more meaningful ways. I think it’s a hard sale to propose removing demon’s bite, though, because the initial assumption is that my reasoning is “i like demon’s blade better”, which couldn’t be further from the truth. I like the concept of demons blade better if it means I still always have something to do and never have empty gcd windows, which implies we need more meaningful abilities added into our rotation. Demon’s bite, on the other hand, could also be great if pressing the button meant a bit more than “get fury”. It could also mean “chance to increase fury generation by x over the next y seconds”. It could mean “next x ability does y”. Maybe “casting demon’s bite increases your haste by x over the next y seconds, stacks up to z times”.
Or, these concepts could be baked into new abilities, which interact better or buff us in some way.
I ran into this the other day, small sample, but I think it clearly shows a trend on many players liking how havoc plays.
For the record I myself don’t really like how Havoc plays, and I share some of the OP feelings about it, however that doesn’t mean it needs to be changed to cater to my liking, it just means I play something else.
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I mean, that’s not unusual. You make it sound like every single ability a class is given should be part of their single-target rotation, which clearly isn’t the case. First Blood, like a number of other similar talents, adds one of our AoE abilities to our single-target rotation. This issue is how sparse the rotation is without that, not First Blood itself.
The issue is, passive resource mechanics basically never have full GCDs, because the entire point of it being a resource is that it isn’t unlimited, and thus that it meters your gameplay. There are a few examples of resource mechanics that don’t have downtime, but they are rare, and always involve an active generator of some sort.
MM is a good example of this, but most of their focus comes from Steady Shot and Rapid Fire, not their hilariously slow passive regen. BM also is basically GCD-locked, but that’s because their resource generation is high enough that it basically never matters, factoring it out entirely as a mechanic (their primary mechanic these days is Barbed Shot maintenance and refresh timing).
So that’s the issue. Either it limits your GCDs, or the resource isn’t really relevant. The only exceptions are when you have a consumer that consumes huge amounts of resource, relative to maximum. Starsurge, Templar’s Verdict, Glacial Spike, Earth Shock, all of these reflect resource systems where you generate it in discrete quantities, then consume most or all of it in a single attack. That is not well-oriented towards what Havoc is about. And given that Havoc is melee, making it be about that would necessarily move it towards the lots-of-short-CDs model that Ret uses, which I’m also wildly opposed to.
The funny thing about this is the only two people so far to agree with him are #1 a DH with ilvl 379 and a shaman. And he thanked both of them for their opinions. Also, neither of them gave analytical or logical reasons for agreeing with Haugs, they merely agreed that the spec should change and isn’t good as is.
What you really mean, same as this entire thread, is “I don’t agree with you and therefore don’t value your opinion.” Rockford has given plenty of input backed up by analysis and logic, you just don’t like it.
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