That’s a neat image but it’s just more of the same, the old “Strong man” theory of history and governance.
Bel’ameth, I sleep. NE having a new capital on the Dragon Isles is lame and the portals to every place there is an NE questing hub is dumb and does not make me think they’re so back.
However, Gilneas being reclaimed has a lot of potential. I’m looking forward to it.
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I would go with the crazy option of Number 2 since there are most likely going to try to go deeper into tech knowledge which is what the scourge did with their creations.
What I think the Horde needs.
-An expansion where characters from Horde lore are not villains or sitting off to the side or down in the basement while characters from Alliance Lore save the world.
-Some development for them that more than the occasional short quest chain here and there. Let alone actually time spent on the expansion plot. (Again, other than them being villains so the Alliance has a foe.)
-Something where Horde characters are actual heroes.
In short, positive development.
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Full disclosure; it will be very hard for me to answer this question without feeling a certain kind of way and that might probably come across in my tone. My anger isn’t directed at you tho!
Not everything is about having cities and controlling land. What does the Horde need? A gosh-dang story that doesn’t involve them being evil, how about that for a start??
From Cata to now, when the Horde even exists in the narrative at all, it’s as the new big bad. Cata, MoP and BfA present the Horde as obvious antagonists. WoD? “Oh, it was never demon blood that made you evil!! See??? Orcs are just born ready to murder drainos for no reason!!” Legion? What Horde. Shadowlands? What Horde. Dragonflight? What Horde.
The Horde needs a chance to not be shoved in the back of a closet, without also being portrayed as innately bad. We’re told we uphold honor, but when was the last time the Horde was even portrayed as having honor? Saurfang Junior’s sacrifice?
Yeah, it’s easy to say the Horde’s not in a bad position if you’re focused on just land objectives in old content, but as soon as you broaden your perspective beyond that, the Horde has been hurting for a long time.
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Actually, my perspective was on unfinished plots left to rot, moreso than land. A lot of the Alliance’s unfinished plots happen to revolve around land is all. As I’d said earlier, to me it seems that Blizzard is starting to get better at finishing stories.
In that regard do I claim the Horde is not exactly hurting. Much of it’s stories have come to fruition and have their conclusions. Zandalari is secure, with it’s new Queen and a new Loa backing her up. The Darkspear have their new Chieftain in the form of Rokhan. The Blood Elves secured Quel’Thalas, and have their new Sunwell. The Nightborne have secured Suramar and are no longer dependent on the Sunwell.
That having been said.
I empathize.
Ever since the Forsaken were put on the Horde, the WC3 Horde of honorable savages was doomed. Blizzard was never capable of a balancing act that would allow the Horde to retain that sort of image, while at the same time having a playable variety of Scourge in the game for players to enjoy.
I think right now we’re at a point where the rot has been cleaned out of the Horde, and more importantly, stories focusing on building up factions and exploring growing, adapting cultures would be appropriate. Now would be an excellent time to get an old world revamp expansion focused on a Renaissance for both the Horde and Alliance, where the two factions do not fight one another, but look inwards and discover what it is they truly desire.
The main issue there is Blizzard would have an impossible time avoiding shoving some Titan+++ Cosmic world-ending threat into the works, which they seem to be required to do with every expansion, much to the game’s detriment.
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I know I’m just snipping this out of the rest of your post but I sharply disagree here. The story’s definitely PRETENDING as if it had, but the rot set in. You can’t remove it. All that you can really do is ignore that it’s there, because every storyline from here on out has to be based on the game not bringing up the fact that the faction, its notable characters, and the horde PC were all complicit in genocide.
I’d also feel that the reason why the horde might seem like there aren’t any unfinished plots is due to not developing the faction’s worldbuilding enough to even take advantage of stuff. For example, we just left an expansion all about the afterlife, something that all four of the core horde races had a connection to, and WoW didn’t do a damn thing to capitalize on it. And now there’s nothing to go back to since Shadowlands is over, and people would most likely revolt at revisiting it for any reason.
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Outside of here, a lot of people don’t like Horde being the good guys. Mostly not even Alliance players, Horde players get mad the moment the Horde isn’t slaughtering and pillaging Alliance. I don’t think they would take very well to Horde characters being heroes and interacting with the Alliance in non-negative ways. Complaints about “Disney-fication” and all that.
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On this I understand, but disagree on a matter of semantics. When I discuss rot, I’m thinking more of problematic characters and/or cultures. I’m talking about the Warhawks, the wanna-be Garrosh Hellscreams, the Forsaken who want to be the Scourge, etc… Of the Horde’s current cast, only Geya’rah and Talanji stick out as potential concerns, but Geya’rah has an active interest in the welfare of the Mag’har, and Talanji has the benefit of Bwonsamdi for a Loa, so I don’t see her trying anything stupid.
Teldrassil is a scar the Horde will never be free from. At least, not without a reboot which, again, is something I’d gladly support.
That was a bit sh*tshow all around, no disagreement there. It wasn’t just the Horde shafted either. Pretty much every major culture’s views on the afterlife was ignored, if not downright trampled into the dirt.
I’m not a big Horde player (anymore), and I don’t have a solution for the long-term problems mentioned in the above posts, but I think a few things that would help moving forward is to have Horde characters and Horde-themed organizations be prominent in neutral content.
It’s one of the long-running grievances that the Horde plays second fiddle in neutral content, meaning that their only focus is in faction conflict, which leaves the Alliance frustrated that the Horde only seems interested in killing them and undermines the “but Azeroth needs them against these outside threats” story.
We need more Dranosh at the Wrathgate scenes: The Horde establishing its own assault based on its own motivations, charging in with Horde warcries and crashing through their enemies’ ranks - with no moral ambiguity whatsoever, just a moment to feel cool.
Using recent-ish past stories as examples:
- The orcs raise their own offensive against Kil’jaeden, full of surviving members of the Old Horde here to tell the Deceiver where to shove his lies.
- Saurfang as a major character on Argus, as the locals recognize the face so like Broxigar and that allows them to hope that Sargeras can be hurt again.
There’s a lot of other options, for every story - Horde shaman countering Primalists, Horde druids getting a spotlight to show what their relationship with the green dragonflight and the Emerald Dream is, etc. These should be major parts of neutral expansions, so both factions have plenty of faces and aesthetics to recognize.
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The only problem I find here is the Horde’s own division. Namely, it boils down to the elves. I’ve seen more than a few posts by Horde players asking why they should even subscribe for the next three expansions when none of it features Horde content. When Quel’Thalas gets brought up either these posters ignore it, or they’ll argue that the elves don’t count because they’re more Alliance themed than Horde themed.
We’ve got an entire expansion coming focused on Horde zones and a Horde race, Horde players are writing it off already because it lacks Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, etc…
Yeah. I don’t have a great answer to that.
I think it wouldn’t be as much of a complaint if there had been more of these Horde stories in previous/current content - like shaman featuring prominently in the Primalist patches, or Tauren/Darkspear/Zandalari druids having their own major roles in the Emerald Dream content.
If that was established, I think that there’d be a lot fewer complaints about Horde content being elf-focused for the upcoming expansion. But I’m not sure there’s any solution that can be started right now.
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Doesn’t help that the Blood Elves always feel like outsiders only adjacently associated with the Horde.
They are also one of the few Horde Races that gets some representation but only as representatives of their own race and never feel like they are representing the horde directly.
On top of that there is the constant undercurrent by the fans demanding that the fabled “high elves” be given to the alliance and being angry that the “evil/monster faction” got them instead. My memories of the old Blood Elve lore says their beauty was only skin deep for many of them. Which just made them yet another Forsaken situation. The difference is they look good so people assume they are good… much like in real life.
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To be honest, most people I know have been over the Horde getting Blood Elves for ages. The High Elf request has more to do with the fact that, as an Alliance player, they get shoved down your throat all the time, to the point where they’ve had more exposure and presence than some of the Alliance’s playable races. You cannot use Stormwind’s portal nexus without passing High Elves in the process.
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So for full disclosure, I’m not one of those writing it off. I dunno if you can tell, but… I kinda do not mind blood elves in the Horde!!
But as a very long-time Horde player, I do very much see their issues.
Blood elves are like… The Horde’s step-siblings. When the Horde is given a big focus (meaning when the Horde goes to war with the Alliance) you see big orcs going all in. Tauren reluctantly going forward. Trolls joining the party because why not. Goblins blowing up everything they can. Forsaken marching into the fray.
Lor’themar ready to have his people rejoin the Alliance.
Like for real, it always feels like the blood elves are one drink away from throwing away their red tabards for some nice, flattering blue ones. Because when blood elves show up, it’s usually to discuss actually doing exactly that.
I’m probably overstating things a bit, but I hope we can all agree the blood elves have repeatedly been portrayed as Horde by Convenience.
It doesn’t help matters that for the most part the Nightborne have been a non-entity among the Horde… Except as dating material for the guy voted most likely to redecorate in blue and gold.
And Midnight, being all about elves, will have to carry that baggage. Two Alliance races, a Horde race waiting for a chance to rejoin the Alliance, and another Horde race that only joined up because Tyrande didn’t ask nicely enough.
So two Alliance races and two almost-Alliance races.
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To me, I think blood elves and nightborne only really exist in the story to be alliance-palatable “horde rep”. And naturally, if you’re interested in the horde for their monstrous races, then getting elf focus is a tax and not a boon to you.
I polled this forum once for alliance fans to pick: if they HAD to quest for a horde racial leader, which one would they prefer to follow. While I think “none” won out, the character with the most actual votes ended up being Lor’themar.
At the same time, you can’t exactly ignore the fact that elves make up a plurality of the horde playerbase, so if you’re going to focus on a race or two on the horde faction, the best bang for your development buck is to work on them.
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That is a problem.
The fact remains, while Horde players refuse to see certain parts of the Horde as being legitimately part of the Horde, then Horde content will never be Horde content. Horde content will only be Orc, Troll, Tauren, etc… stuff. Unless the Blood Elves are in the background as window dressing, they just don’t count to Horde players of a certain mindset.
Like you said, it’s not hard to see why that’s the case. It doesn’t help that whenever the Horde has needed to go neutral, the Blood Elves take up the cup. If it’s Dalaran in Wrath, or being friendly with the Draenei in WoD, or working together to save Suramar, it’s always the Blood Elves acting as the link for the Horde to cooperate with the Alliance.
Its weird that the Goblins don’t get used more to that effect. I think Mechagon Isle worked out nicely in that regard. It felt fairly natural that these Gnomes, with no prior experience with Goblins, would find common ground and work with them not only without complaint, but a certain enthusiasm.
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Can add the Dragonscale Expedition to that too. Two of the NPCs you often deal with is a blood elf and Toddy the dwarf. But Alysna is right, usually when the Blood Elves show up in a story, it’s usually because they’re having an existential crisis and want to go team blue.
Tauren often get derided as being useless, a lot of people on both sides are fatigued of orcs, trolls just exist to get kicked around, the forsaken are just…kinda there, in the corner doing gods know what. So that leaves the pretty race to be the face of the horde, which is a problem that I don’t know how blizz can reasonably fix
And it sucks for those who are sick of elves, LOTR has made them far too popular of a race in fantasy for a lot of people
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I feel like it’s been long enough since WoD that we could get some Orc content without hitting Orc fatigue.
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If they go the same route the Orc Heritage armor did than sure. Because that was actually beautifully done
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