This is the first expansion I didn’t pre-order. I don’t even know if I’m going to buy it. I’m totally bored of how retail WoW operates. All of Blizzard’s modern games just feel meh now. They lost their passion for making games. The stuff they make now feels like it was designed to just extract as much time and money as they can out of their customers.
Tbh if content as faceroll as mythic+ can give uncapped heroic gear and weekly mythic gear in the vault I don’t see why delves can’t.
This is comedy. Legion, BFA, and SL had significantly more content than M+. But raid loggers complained. Now M+ is all we really have left.
If you want to raid log easy bosses with 2 mechanics, classic is waiting for you.
We are out here pretending heroic isn’t faceroll… ok…
Another disingenous argument. As if raiders in vanilla, TBC, Wrath didn’t have ridiculously stupid looking UIs that clogged the screen full of junk. And back then, screen resolutions were much smaller, so it was even worse.
Also, look at all the players here complaining about how easy M+ is now. If Blizzard removed addons and “went back to basics” (whatever that means), I’m sure there will be a 0% chance that these same players aren’t going to cry endlessly about how the game has been dumbed down to the nth degree. No, sir, it will definitely not happen… 
To be fair, neither do you.
So, the reason why Turalyon, a low pop server, has about 1 message per hour in Trade while Area 52, a high pop server, has about 50 messages per second, is because Blizzard has arbitrarily decided to segregate players? 
To give the impression that game’s population isn’t dwindling.
Now, I’m not saying that it is or is not, but where most MMOs shut down / merged servers when their populations fell, Blizzard opted for “connected realms”, which is essentially a euphemism for “server merger”, just without the forced character name changes in case of clashes.
1 Like
Please enlighten the thread on the intricacies of Blizzard’s server structure. We are all ears here.
Why are you asking me? Drunne seems to be the expert… 
1 Like
Hmm, the way you were slinging insults made it appear you had some insights.
Why do your comments come off as kind of egotistical?
That would be nice, but I think the reason Blizzard settled on 8 dungeons per M+ season is they felt that was enough in terms of the number of bosses and mechanics for players to have to content with in a given season. 10+ M+ dungeons in a given season may be a bit much.
To wit: you don’t exactly see many (any?) threads / players on the forums complaining about the lack of dungeons in the M+ pool…
I don’t know what this means, but the direction of this argument seems pointless. Reduced to its bare essentials, EVERY game is the same thing over and over again.
Yes, and I, and others, have agreed with this many times already…what are we arguing about again?
But they’re not trying to find other players in 20+ levels of content. There’s no restriction on what level of M+ you want to attempt, so long as someone has a key for it.
Slinging insults at whom?
I don’t know about egotistical, but if you are talking about my responses to Drunne, trying to talk with him has been an exercise in futility and frustration:
1 Like
People have been wanting more dungeons since forever. This idea that people are stuck in this very limited set of repeatable content is horrible for a themepark MMO.
Farming M+ score is a horrible form of MMORPG progression.
There is the disconnect that so many retail players have from people that played older MMOs.
People want to progress through content in a MMORPG, not run the same dungeon, zone or raid over and over again. This is what the old game had, and when you finished the content you were done until the next patch. You weren’t farming some dumb score that no one cares about.
I get that MMOs need some form of repeatable content for people that want to play only one game, but what Blizzard is doing now just reeks of modern live-service gaming.
They’re using a small amount of recycled content each patch, with only a miniscule addition of new content to keep players busy. I think it is hurting the game because it burns players out.
I think the entire way retail WoW is designed is completely out of whack with how a good MMO should be designed.
The modern game is like this weird hybrid live-service lobby game tacked onto the bloated corpse of what was once a pretty immersive MMORPG.
There are a ton of guilds pushing Heroic but it’s not the same as how it used to be. I’ve been in a lot of raiding guilds over the past few expansions and the “guild raid” has become the “officer raid” with pugs that just have your guild name over their heads. What you typically see are the officers/raid leader/GM who are all doing like +20 keys and outgearing Heroic raiding. Typically on log parsing they are low greys because the “real effort” is in M+ and not Heroic raiding.
Also if the guild happens to raid on any day past Tuesday… 1/4 to 1/3 of the guild will pug parts of Heroic on Tuesday so when the guild raid actually happens you will get like 20 people in the raid and when you kill the boss 2 pieces of loot drop because 1/3 of the raid has already done the bosses and “gotten what they needed”.
Mythic raiding is something else but normal/heroic… it is nothing like how it used to be and people are doing it to “do it” effectively to get the achievement, title, mount and tmogs but the real action is M+ which is infinitely easier to gear up as compared to raiding.
4 Likes
I understand what you are saying here and sympathize with the general ethos of what you are getting at, however, I feel like as often happens, what is actually being said is written from a rose-tinted glasses nostalgia perspective that doesn’t get to the heart of the issue.
Hear me out:
Players in general, or M+ players? If it is players in general, perhaps many of whom do not engage with M+ and would only run the dungeons a few times, why would or should Blizzard spend the not-insignificant resources on content most players will only play a few times?
Also, a theme park is not a good analogy for your argument here, as theme parks do not get new rides every week or month. If you go to a theme park every week, you’re going to be riding the same rides you did before.
The only progression content prior to M+ was raids. Maybe PvP as well, but in PvP you were farming rating and
If farming M+ score is dumb, then so is farming PvP rating, so you were left with raid-or-die.
If there was some other meaningful progression content players were doing, I am not aware of it.
Nothing is stopping you from doing that now in DF.
I don’t understand the logic of what’s being said here.
- Players want to play the game
- Players are given repeatable content they enjoy
- Something something about content reeking of modern live service gaming
- Something something about recycled content
- Therefore, players are getting burned out
Players get burned out when they are required to do things they do not want to do to get to the fun stuff they do want to do. See Chorgast as a perfect example.
I see this in many threads, but only once have I seen someone actually post the content they would like to see that wasn’t raids or dungeons.
And even then:
- we had to twist this players arm to produce the list
- many of the items on the list were never going to keep players occupied for more than a week or so
- almost everyone in the thread, regardless of which side of the M+ / raid / solo player debate they were on, agreed that it would be good to have said content in the game
- none of the content required M+ and / or raids to be removed from the game
I think if you want specific content, the best thing to do is provide feedback to Blizzard via the forums on what you would like and why. You’d be surprised how many players will support it.
But starting from the position of “we should have X content but we can only get it by getting rid of Y content” is only going to piss other players off (especially if X and Y are not mutually exclusive, like raiding and players housing).
2 Likes
Not saying it is hard, just potato mode (mythic+) is even easier and gives aspect crests and a mythic track vault.
No, because there are tons of people playing Vanilla WoW right now and loving it. It is okay for content to have an end, this is how gaming has always been.
Everyone is paying a sub and paying for an expansion, so Blizzard is getting 50+ bucks plus a few months sub from every player now. What are we paying a monthly sub for now, just a limited amount of recycled content.
You’re making excuses for a BILLION dollar company here that has made record profits that last 5 years. Please, just stop making excuses.
I can tell you haven’t played MMOs for that long, themepark MMO is the most used term to describe what kind of MMO WoW is basically. Your comparison here to an actual Themepark is hilarious.
Wrong, there was leveling, then max level gear quests, then dungeons, then raids. See, this all worked together with the end goal of beating the last boss of the current raid. You reached an end point, which is very typical for all RPGs, WoW used to follow this formula, but Act-Blizz wanted more played time metrics, that is why we got world quests, tables, and systems like M+. All these concepts are ripped straight from live-service games and mobile phone games.
[
Players want new content, not recycled content. This is why we pay 15 bucks a month to play. If WoW is going to continue down this path, they need to go F2P then, because this sub fee is cutting it for the amount of content they ship now.
Right, which M+ is a huge culprit. They should have kept the way it was in MoP and WoD and instead of shoving that crap into the gear progression.
I want dungeons and raids, but I don’t want to farm the same content for years. I want them to make new content each patch, not recycle old content.
Please, these developers don’t listen to any feedback at all, it is why the game is in this crappy state right now. The only started to listen the last year because their sale numbers have been horrible.
I have never seen a more arrogant group of developers than the people in charge of Blizzard games.
I guess a lot of the blame can be pinned on Act-Blizz execs, they have been meddling in all the IPs way too much.
All of Blizzard’s modern games are basically just a means to extract as much money as possible from the remaining fans. None of their games are designed to just be fun. Blizzard is just like many of the other big AAA studios, stagnant and devoid of good leadership.
Why do played-time metrics matter in a subscription-based game? I’m not a gaming industry expert, but I’m curious. Wouldn’t they just care more about maintaining subscriptions, regardless of how much time someone is playing?
Probably for shareholders. The “played-time” metric has already been used in the past, I think it was for Q3 in 2020? Something in that timeframe. iirc they really highlighted it in their quarterly report, how player engagement has been the highest since 10 years.
They can use it to say something extremely positive and uplifting about the game without lying.
1 Like
My point of view would be to have 8 dungeons on release and 2 new on .1 and another 2 new on .2
You’d be able to do 4 dungeons of the expansion each patch as the 3 patch model seems what we’re going for, so half the dungeons would be new. I think that’s a viable compromise.
In raids you wipe many many times, in dungeons you might not time it but you normally don’t really need to learn mechanics as much. The important part of raids is normally the first time you kill it, even more now that m+ farm has pretty much replaced a lot of reasons to do raid farm.
Sure but you’d find more people for your keys if they were less dispersed. They might not have needed to do crossfaction if we didn’t have M+.
Ah, understood. It seems strange, though, that shareholders would be appeased with that and wouldn’t be more interested in subscription numbers, though maybe that part just isn’t public.
1 Like
As far as raiding, Ion and his team only care about Echo and Limit. Because they post on twitter about how wonderful the developers are.
Nobody else matters to the developers. At least not as far as raiding is concerned.
(Nor is this unique to WoW. I’ve been in game publishing for over 25 years, and it’s concerning to see this recent rise of game developers who design to twitter and streamers. And don’t care about anyone else. It results in this circular inbred mentality that’s bad for almost everyone, but they don’t want the buying public to enter into their echo chambers. I tell developers all the time: “Don’t look at twitter. Don’t look at twitch. Look at our sales data.”)
((And that’s also why I just shake my head when people say the developers only care about money. They DON’T care about money, that’s the problem. They only care about getting fluffed up on twitter by the handful of people they’re catering to. The game - and its players - would be MUCH better off if the developers actually wanted to make more money, because they would have to appeal again to a wider and deeper audience simultaneously.))
1 Like
Might be true. I mean… look at the various healing nerfs since DF dropped. All of this happened only because some top players felt the game was too easy and healers massively op. Even after the first big nerf they still felt that way and pushed for more changes. And Blizzard was happy with their work, despite so much negative feedback from the general playerbase and while many healers just rerolled or quit because they didn’t have fun anymore.
Let’s not skip over implicating wowhead’s role in this, either.
They recently published this “gem”:
The guy who wrote it, asking “were these healing nerfs good?” was one of the main guys saying healing was overpowered in the first place and calling for healing nerfs.
I don’t think you even need to read it to find out what his opinion is on the nerfs he asked for. I certainly didn’t read it.
Like I said: Echo Chamber Game Development. wowhead is functioning like a 2nd twitter, here:
- wowhead writer calls for changes
- developers make those changes
- wowhead praises changes
- developers have a Little Jack Horner moment and sleep better at night
2 Likes