MOP was scenario-driven, and they kept adding new ones throughout. Like the later ones with the Gob Squad and the stuff under Vale of Eternal Blossoms.
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A little funny, but mythic+ is one of the reasons that allows 2 day mythic guilds to exist.
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You could still raid 2 days in the past, just most didnât clear everything. CE does have a skill requirement.
Yep, this comment is completely lost on the M+ defenders here. The casual players have been pretty much left out of the equation here. They get some boring zone with some rares to farm and a bunch of faceroll campaign quests.
Retail is probably one of the most stale MMOs I have ever played. The developers working on the game donât have a clue what makes a good MMO tick.
The only left that is actually good in retail is the raids, everything else just feels terrible.
They canât even make fun dungeons anymore, the dungeons look terrible and just feel like theyâre all setup for M+.
I donât know what happened to WoW, it feels like the competitive players are the only customers Blizzard cares about now, probably since they buy the most token and cash shop stuff.
You just lose more raid time to reclears for gearing. And extending hurts your gearing a lot more.
Now you can spend all your raid time on prog and still be gearing every week.
For better or worse.
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On the contrary, most âM+ defendersâ I see on the forums are supportive of other content development, including solo-type content, like Delves, and improving world content and raid loot. I think folks who enjoy the game are smart enough to know itâs good for the game if others are enjoying it, too.
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I just wanna emphasise this as well because while I do think there is currently some imbalance / issue with the state of Mythic+ gearing compared to raids I in no way endorse a single thing Drunne has ever said.
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That depends how you define âworkedâ. With completely confirmed numbers, WoW went from 12 million subs in October 2010 to 5.6 million in August of 2015. And most estimates position this drop to be far worse, but I donât have any concrete numbers to back that up. There has also only been one expansion to last less than 2 years, the one immediately preceding the introduction of M+. WoW was built on its raiding, without a doubt; but clearly having solid raids is not a formula that proved to stand the test of time.
How are you measuring engagement? In another post I went through all the servers in my region for both retail and classic. There were 8x the number of high/full servers on retail than total servers across all classic modes. Classic definitely seems to be successful, but there is nothing to suggest there are anywhere near the number of players on Classic as are still on retail.
Further, thereâs no indication that the overlap in players on Classic is strong with the players on Retail. Gameplay-wise, Classic is significantly different than Retail. Itâs fully possible that most players on Classic are people returning to WoW for Classic rather than people who are disgruntled with the state of Retail.
Citation needed.
For me, when it wasnât raid night I was working on an alt or not playing WoW. To be clear, I donât fundamentally oppose the option for players to do so. I am not supporting the current model where raiders wanting to compete for HOF slots have to fill all off-time with M+. But I found there was very little for me to do on my main when I wasnât raiding before M+.
First off, this is completely subjective.
Second, there were a lot of major patches throughout WoWâs history where there was no new zone at all added alongside a raid tier; all new content fed into the raid that was already on the existing map and the non-raiding population may as well not have even logged in.
I donât oppose your position in theory - I would love for Blizzard to give us all new content season over season. Itâs just not an accurate statement to pretend like Blizzard demonstrated the desire to do so prior to M+ or that theyâve even significantly but back on such content in the years since M+. It seems just as likely to me that were M+ not a part of WoW, we would have gotten the exact same content we did just minus M+.
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Are you actually trying to suggest thereâs some kind of way to have a nuanced view of issues in this game? 
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People actually run M0 still? M0 doesnât even release week 1 now, it opens at the same time m+ does. Imo itâs far more efficient to dive right into keys as opposed to m0s for not only the higher ilvl drops, but to be filling your vault immediately.
Yes, but youâre doing it at least once at the start of an xpac anyways. Thereâs been 3 raids this xpac, meaning youâre adding in an extra 2 dungeon farming cycles compared to what you used to do.
And I believe this is the way the game should be. If you are a raid only type of player, having old raids be relevant to add more content for you to play outside of 1 raid clear and being locked out would be far better for the game and those players. But, without that being the case in the current game, blizzard forced you guys to run dungeons to keep the time played metrics up from raiders.
This I donât agree with, the game needed an infinitely replayable mode other than pvp for those who donât raid. As an m+ only player I never understood why some of you think the gearing from m+ is so good⌠realistically unless it comes from your vault itâs a placeholder crap piece of gear that will be replaced quickly. Nobody wants to be wearing m+ dungeon gear that came from within the dungeon and not the vault. Itâs a temporary power boost for the first couple weeks and thatâs all it is. After a few weeks you arenât ever going to equip anything you get from running dungeons
I agree completely, the esports side of the game needs to go. The barrier to entry for new players is way too high, and the veteran players are getting burnt out from the playtime demands the game has.
Raiding should be a social atmosphere playing with friends and having a good time killing bosses and getting loot. It shouldnât be a career in which youâre using people as stepping stones just to get to the next better guild and leave the last one behind with zero loyalty or care.
M+ already provides infinite difficulty scaling for those who want a challenge, thatâs not what raiding should be about.
This game requires you to group with people to even play the content, but the average player in WoW isnât even good enough to do the content in the first place with how difficult blizzard tries to make it, leading to nothing more than toxicity, leavers, and absurd ilvl/achievement demands to get into groups because people donât want their time wasted.
I donât even think itâs a stretch to say that the average WoW player isnât capable of doing a +20, or doing mythic raid where you can get max rewards from. Meaning the game is not developed for the average player
First patch? Maybe it was heroic idr, but point being you still have to do dungeons to get out of those random quest items regardless.
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Mythic dungeons were available before mythic plus.
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They 100% were not this tier. M0 released the same time m+ did
I absolutely do not want to have to dedicate time for my guild to go back and reclear previous patch raids just because we need trinkets. We had to do this for tank trinkets in Sepulcher and it SUCKED.
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M0 is there with launch. You run them for 2 weeks before the season starts.
Achievement check:
Brewa level 70 - 11/28/2022
Mythic Neltharus - 12/3/2022
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Except weâre not talking about tiers when it comes to M0. Weâre talking about expansions. Hence the whole âYou only had to do it once compared to 3 timesâ point.
Thanks I could have sworn I wasnât going mad.
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Xpac launch sure, but they definitely werenât with this patch. Canât remember if thatâs usually the case or not
But farming the same 5 mans for 8x the amount of time is okay?
God, the takes from M+ defenders are so delusional sometimes.
Meh⌠just throwing those numbers in without context is quite difficult and doesnât say anything about the quality of the formula.
It was inevitable that the numbers would sooner or later start to decline. Infinite growth isnât possible, at some day there had to be a turning point with more and more players starting their lives, getting married, going to military or work, get kids⌠or just have enough of grinding an MMO. At this point MMOs also started to shift more into the background with other genres and games dominating the market.
The huge player decline in WoD didnât come from players being fed up with the formula of dungeons, raids and the gearing process. It was because WoD was an expansion without content and full of disappointing developer choices, like âWe said that you would maybe be able to fly in WoD. But nah, we just removed it completely, deal with itâ. The meltdown in the community back then was glorious and even more players quit.
At this point Blizzard hid the numbers and started to use other metrics because this crash in subscriptions was some really bad publicity.
If the numbers declined further then probably because a lot of people were just sick of the âjobâ-like approach, where it was necessary to log in daily and grind stuff to keep up. Players were exhausted and SL contributed to that decline a lot with several gigantic content droughts.