if your saying “fv wont be buffed cause its accessable” when its literally one of our major sources of st damage, is just ridiculous
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I think we already covered this but VoJ offered less damage than the extra hp spent suggested it should. FV currently does less damage than it should. “Bugged” HoL being used more often than it can now still had Retribution placed last on the Raid tier list so it wasnt doing too much damage, after the “fix” Ret just does a whole lot less damage and we are back to the rotation we have had for many expansions with rotation pruning from making AW auto cast and more optional pruning on the way in 11.5…it is getting boring. HoL wasnt enjoyed because in made Prot or Ret OP, using it made Prot more likely to die but was fun, and it made Retributions rotation have something interesting going on.
By all means keep name calling and telling us why you feel our opinion is invalid.
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Remove the damage…so it hits like the rest of the Retribution rotation? They could make Ret weaker, thats true. It would defy all logic but they can do whatever they like. Id prefer 5min of Ret doing damage was closer to equal to the currently A tier specs. How Ret gets there is again, up to Blizzard, but HoL was good gameplay IMO. With it Bugged Ret still needed buffs, now it needs big buffs, like a 300% buff to Spenders that are not HoL.
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Benmarch is one of the most patient mfers here, and you’re going off on him cause he’s calling out your poor examples and excuses. You can deal with me however you like, but you don’t deal with him in that tone. Take the L the bug is gone and stop being a ***** about it
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FV needed to be buffed for quite some time, probably since it was nerfed and additionally pvp nerfed days after 10.0.7 launched. You’re 100% correct FV (and the sad nerfed constantly JV) need buffs. My comments are primarily from pvp experience. Right now I can kite and eventually kill a Ret or Prot Paladin as MM with little chance of taking damage if their teammates allow it to stay a 1vs1. They hit me, but their damage is pathetic and mitigated by defensives easily. I can heal for more than the damage they have because they lack MS, and my damage isnt stopped because they dont have a disarm. Melee specs somehow without melee tools AND lacking instant mobility. With all the lacking pvp tools and pvp specific nerfs to talents, pvp talents, and passives, adding low damage to the list of features is sad. I want blizzard to do right by the paladin spec.
Sorry to rant but I go off the handle about paladin flaws about weekly.
That’s rich coming from YOU.
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No he’s not.
He’s asking for someone to go into the game files at blizzard and change the numbers of damage on certain abilities to be higher.
Like maybe, restoring FV to 179% AP instead of 161% AP for example.
That doesn’t change Jacksh*t to the gameplay.
What do you think an overhaul is?
That’s what they would do if they were to make it spammable.
Then it would do the same damage as 1 cast but with extra tedious steps.
The “skill” to squeeze more out of templar resides in Shake the Heaven, extending it and getting as much EH stack as possible.
That’s how you stand out from others.
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I’m convinced that people just don’t like Ret at this point. 
Is it fun when things are broken and OP? Sure - I like it when divine purpose bugs out and I can just spam finishers.
But fun gameplay is not the same as good gameplay, nor is it healthy for the design of the spec.
If you’re saying Ret without templar is not fun or engaging that’s not a templar issue, and it shouldn’t be up to the hero tree to guarantee that.
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But it was still weaker than Herald anyway l0l
This maybe makes ret more competitive (and do a bit better on your precious m+ details meters which clearly is all you care about) but this does nothing to solve the problem with pressing FV over and over every 2nd global not being fun. It’s too easy to generate holy power now and personally I would prefer HP to be removed altogether than keep this boring FV spam playstyle.
No it wouldn’t… Yes it would deal less damager per HoL but the overall damage wouldn’t be the same because you are committing way more holy power and globals into this rotation… HoL would be nerfed by like 25% or something
Your math or comprehension of it must be off.
Facts we know. Dps with or without bugged HoL provided Ret the worst in the game tier placement.
Herald out performs bugged and not bugged HoL by about 30% and still leaves Ret in the last place among all specs in the game for ST damage.
Reducing HoL casts available without extensive buffs elsewhere will maintain Rets position in last place for ST DPS.
If HoL was as strong as you claimed while bugged at least one person on earth that pvps would have told the tale of the god tier Ret that smite them in a BG. People tend to over react if a Ret is involved with a character death, but it didnt happen. If anything Prot was claiming it could do damage for once, but not anymore.
inb4 “bUt TheY arE alMOsT iDEntICal iN MY simS!!!”
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I can’t wait to see those logs.
People keep chirping about “beta logs” yet there’s not aggregate on those and we see like 2 bosses on each of them.
I don’t know how people can make that call with such sporadic and scarce data and with sims being half broken.
Don’t get me wrong, I have a similar perception of my damage but I don’t think what I’ve been doing is a fair representation.
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Some assumptions on my part are from arguably small batch personal testing, and the tier list for raid that was just published the evening before HoL was changed from wowhead.
Current experience concerns touch on both, current design and tuning.
As MM energy regen provided by haste(automatic) and a few unused abilities that do almost no damage, allows me to spend nearly all GCDs on abilities that always do, or are very likely to do more damage than a FV, and for the most part they have more than twice the range of FV(saftey + convenience). Those life taking abilities include, Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Volly applying Explosive Shot, Explosive Shot, and two separate knockbacks that smart uses of can kill someone while doing nearly 0 damage.
I dont need to suffer Forbearance. I have more damage, more normal mobility, instant mobility, more CC, before mentioned knockbacks, invisability, MS.
So if MM is better in ST, comparable in AoE, and has less pvp nerfs and much better pvp tools, what incentives are given to Ret players to pvp? The incentive use to be damage, just damage. In BFA and SL that felt like enough. Take away most of the burst of a spec though when that was its saving grace and you dont see them perfoming like most specs. Afraid to base sit, dying to Dots unable to be a hybid and self heal…Rets that do ok are the best Ret players we’ve got as they are playing with a handicap.
I have to say, Ret was feeling smooth and solid from a combat, skill execution perspective when I was getting rolling HoL procs to use on bosses and add packs. It’s back to feeling clunky and stuttering. It may have been a bug, based on the description it can be interpreted either way. I prefer that given the fact that it’s a huge skill in the tree, it should operate as a duration for use, than a duration till used skill.
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Some heroics logs are out, Ret seems to be in the upper echelons but there probably some “instrument or retribution” shenanigans going on.
BUT…
Sikran is a ST boss and top 2 ret ranked on this boss did pretty well on the fight.
First one had 3 death occur on his fight but all at the same time so it’s not that bad as far as representation goes.
He’s at 604 ilvl, he got 3 PI though and might have had 2 tier pieces*
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fX2n4HGc7ZNyaPCb#fight=29&type=damage-done
Second one has no death on his team , he’s at 599 ilvl
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/njBk6WYxHz7MC8VR#fight=19&type=damage-done
Most seem to be playing Herald though and IDK if we’ll get top performers to play it to get a comparison, its a bit of a pickle to compare the 2 right now.
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Sample size of the testing was one raid group? I’ve topped the meters as Ret on raid bosses in SL(probably with PI), that doesnt mean Ret was a S tier spec(although at the time it was pretty good).
Tried to compare the gear of the players on the first kill you liked but it wont display it.
I wont discount that the data is data, it wouldnt be enough to make any real decisions about…unless…every spec was played to its actual best by the best players on those specs? If I’m wrong do let me know. I’ve viewed 95th percentile parses logged by thousands of players posted by wow head from previous expansions. Of course it’s only relevant for it’s time period, but the sample size is adequate enough to draw conclusions.
I took the top 2 Ret performers on all the logs that have been uploaded since yesterday on this specific boss since it doesn’t have adds and is a ST fight.
They are respectively ranked 27th and 35th in the world as of now for damage on this boss.
Which means above a metric ton of people, not simply amongst their own raid.
The fact that they topped the meter in their respective raid is meaningless, that’s not why I selected those.
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Ok, cool. Are they suffering pvp specific nerfs on this boss kill. I think no. Maybe wowhead didnt do their due diligence when they placed Ret in D tier two days ago specific for raid.
I don’t know how they established their list, in fact I don’t know how anyone could have known how the spec would perform in the raid since not all the boss were available for testing and that there were (and probably still are) bugs littering the specs all around.
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