But yeah, judging speedruns by the time it takes to prep makes 0 sense.
That’s like judging a game of soccer by the shots a team missed in practice and by the time it took to mow the lawn.
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No one has ever suggested they speedrun to save time each week. They’re speedrunning to spend save time in the raids.
But if all you look at is world buffs, they’re objectively worth the time it takes to get them when you consider the time you save by having them.
I never made any mention about the other prep that goes into raids. You might remember, if you read what was actually said:
You only mentioned consumes and world buffs. Neither of those things take much time to get.
No, bud, you are. You’re the one shifting the goal posts. You mentioned world buffs and consumes. I proved you wrong on that point, and you swapped to the other prep that goes into a speedrun.
The soccer anology isn’t terribly apt for raiding, but any business owner or project manager would tell you this is exactly what you should do. It’s all about ratio of cost to return. Every missed shot and hour spent in training is time and effort that could have been spent elsewhere. Is it really a success to win a $100,000 tournament pool “in one day” after a year of unpaid training, if you could have earnt that some amount of money over one year working a day job?
I respect and agree with your opinions in this post. I supposs OP’s Halo analogy is also a bit problematic.
Lol, I literally had to say to this same person the same thing last night in an unrelated thread after a series of similar textwalls.
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And it was just as incorrect in that thread as it is here.
The point of that thread was whether the OP should play a Druid or a Paladin. The discussions of which is the better choice (and why) are relevant to that topic.
Similarly, this thread is trying to make some point about which is more impressive: raiding with world buffs or without. The answer depends on what you value. Do you care more about the time it takes to prepare, or the end result within the allotted raid time? Discussions about the merits of each are relevant.
You guys just don’t know what “moving the goalposts” even means.
As I have said - nobody in their right mind would speedrun to save time. It’s purely competitive and has nothing to do with efficiency at all.
There is a middle-ground for sure. Our split raids clear AQ40, BWL & MC in 2 hours. That’s relatively cheap in regards to consumables.
I still use all wbuffs usually including WCB via mind-control (am alliance) but unless pvp happens it’s usually quite doable. What pains me more is the raid logging and I personally think we’d spent less overall time if we went buffless but that’s just me. I would however say that in this case we save time and gold compared to average guilds.
But for speedruns the time requirement goes through the roof, especially if there is a blizzard ptr available.
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the content is easy either way
buffs just let us clear faster, we are not reliant on them to clear the content at all
there is no ‘hard mode’ in classic
join a guild where WB are not a requirement if you hate them, don’t enforce your wants on the rest of us
honestly i feel like a lot of these threads are from people that cry and stomp their feet when they are not willing to use all tools avaliable, like how OP was complaining about pvp consumes.
people are just better at exploiting an old game, get over it
I think this is where the analogies become difficult to sustain, because everybody views raiding differently whereas most jobs or sports have a relatively uniform purpose. For some it is about world firsts and beating records. For most, as you acknowledged, it’s about finding a happy medium between investment/return in order farm loot.
But for either/or, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to factor time spent farming consumables / gathering WBs into your overall “clear” time - which other people in this thread seemed to be ridiculing. Especially if - as you’ve suggested - it may be possible and even preferential to get by without them.
Exactly. And you turned it into a thread where you were dictating to the OP that guilds only need one druid per raid, and using other people’s raid logs to discredit them where they suggested otherwise. Whether you’re right or wrong on optimisation, it was nonetheless disingenuous to OP and petty to the people with whom you were debating.
And it indeed moved the goalposts because the thread become largely de-railed to discuss optimal raid optimisation with a “prove me wrong” mentality- instead of discussing “whether the OP should play a Druid or Paladin”.
To expound upon this - in raids, I am limited by our tank. I cannot do my best DPS because if I do, I will very easily pull threat off of our tank. There are numerous fights where I have to just do nothing, or just do bare minimum DPS, and even still it’s tricky not to pull threat.
My parses suffer as a result. There’s nothing I can do about it. If the entire raid isn’t performing at the same level, the individual parse will be next to meaningless.
Parses aren’t something for one person to strive for, they’re a group effort.
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I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider the time outside of raid preparing for them either. I just think the amount of time people claim it takes to prepare for a decent raid is exaggerated. World buffs can be obtained in a few minutes, and your consumes pay for themselves with the gold you get from clearing the raids.
I was telling the OP why Paladin is the better choice. Go read the thread again and maybe look at the context of my comments. The point of sharing people’s logs was to put into perspective the credibility of the people making arguments against what I had said.
None of that was “shifting the goalposts.”
No, as I already stated:
To disagree with this is akin to saying that it is derailment to answer anything other than “Druid” or “Paladin,” as explaining why is apparently “shifting the goalposts.”
If anyone is attempting to derail threads, it’s yourself, bringing up your history of interaction with me rather than discussing the topic of this thread. To that end, I’ll let you have the last word here if you want it, and will thereafter avoid perpetuating the derailment you’ve started.
Hmm don’t know what raids you’re doing but I definitely don’t earn enough for all my consumes + summons + tribute ids + e’kos + scorpok. Stuff on my server is extremely inflated to the point that raw gold barely covers anything and is a terrible way to procure gold.
You’ve contradicted yourself, you say raids pay for themselves and yet you’ve proclaimed how farmings easy and everyones doing it anyways, for up to 100hours a week.
Time is time to me, that includes time out of raids. Last thing I want to be doing in my limited spare time is farming more gold then I should have to. I’d rather be pvping or working on alts or god forbid get outside and spend time with family.
This is also all so irrelevant to my point that even though this game isnt overly complex, the little challenges and hurtles that are left are trivialized by this world buff meta. You are making it easier, then in the same breath preaching how easy the game is.
I get 100+ gold for clearing all the raids. Full set of consumes for a week costs maybe 80g, not including a flask (admittedly a big expense). It helps if you don’t die during the run and you can clear the raids in under an hour.
Buy the mats to save gold. Learn when to buy things, too. Each item fluctuates in price depending on the time of the week. You can save a lot of money by buying in bulk at the right times and just saving them for later weeks.
I didn’t contradict myself at all. Read closely.
I said many serious raiders spend time outside of raid farming gold, “usually FAR more than they’ll ever need.”
Then… don’t? Not sure what the problem is. No one is making you farm gold.
I’ve already explained that it takes very little time to get world buffs and to afford consumes. Hell, even on the most inflated realms, a couple hours of farming would last you weeks.
It’s easy even without world buffs and consumes. But obviously those things both make the content easier, as you say, and more importantly faster.
No one wants to spend 3 hours in a single raid. They’d…
I guess if you’re a druid.
Assuming you’re excluding AQ from that, judging by your logs.
Nah, Warrior.
Yeah, our last alt run was disastrous. Here’s my main:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/herod/ironchain
Edit: point still stands. If you don’t die and clear the raid quickly, you spend less gold.
Well thats obvious, but I dispute that all the prep that goes into collecting worldbuffs truely makes you net raid time (Including prep) quicker.
You’ve linked a priest? Also if you main a warrior and full buff your Jujus will come to over 100g alone on my server. Add onto that every other consume and paying for summons etc, this will come to much more then you get in return from doing the raids.
I don’t really care about time to completion anyway, I’d just rather complete the content without exploiting the bad game design that is stacking world buffs, while still being able to compete.
Realistically blizzard would have nerfed world buffs if players in vanilla abused them as them as much as classic players do.
Am I incapable of simply looking at the prices on my realm, dividing the raid time by the duration of the consumables and multiplying by those prices to determine the total consumable expenses for the week… because my main is a Priest?
Not sure the fact I’m a Priest has anything to do with it. On my realm, the consumables for a healer are way more expensive than the consumables for a Warrior.
The point of linking my Priest was to show that I’m in a raid where hour long consumables are lasting through the entirety of AQ40 and short bit into BWL because we clear quickly and have few deaths.
Interesting. So Winterfall E’ko x3 + Frostmaul E’ko x6 > 100g? Even paying at full price, the E’kos on my realm would only cost 33g. Firewaters are cheaper, lowering that price to 25g. I usually wait until my consumes are half value before buying, for reference.
And you’re free to do that. No one is stopping you. There’s a category for that in WCL, too. So what exactly is the point of your OP?
“The game is harder if you don’t use world buffs and consumes, therefore is more impressive”? Sure, I guess, in the same way leveling a character without ever gear and never dying is more impressive than leveling by being boosted.
But most people would probably prefer to get boosted because it’s faster, and spending more time to do something that isn’t really a challenge in the first place is not appealing.
Maybe, or they would’ve changed them to become more available and balanced content around having them. Doesn’t really matter, though, because that didn’t happen.
I’m sure many game developers would’ve made changes to the game based on what speed runners of their games do now, but I think it’s a silly idea to actually go back to a game you made 15 years ago (even if you’re providing it again/still) just to change it to deal with what people are doing.