It’s a shame that the loudest voices now days push for the path of least resistance. For example in vanilla players rarely potted in pvp or duels as it was considered unhonourable and made you look bad. players didn’t keel over after 1 flag cap. World buffs were rarely ever organised or utilised. This version of vanilla has its players play more hours to get less challenge then the original player base had. It seems counter intuitive and I blame the private server scene for bringing their ideologies to classic.
Humans have tended towards the path of least resistance for the entirety of recorded history.
And now everyone uses potions. What exactly is the difference if both parties are on equal footing in that regard?
It has absolutely nothing to do with private servers, I assure you. Min/maxing predates WoW’s existence.
Here is the trouble with this… Comparing individual components of the speed of the overall raid clear time is impossible. This is why comparing your own personal DPS vs the top guy can be problematic. Quite literally if you do not have the exact same strategy used to provide the same time on target, and the same set of group buffs and debuffs, then your parse vs the other guy is incomparable.
The only thing that really matters is overall clear time, or individual boss kill speed, and even that is realistically meaningless if the group comp is different.
Because WCL cannot calculate the values between the different comps, groups, buffs presented by different groups that a player is in, or debuffs on the target, this in turn makes parses only truly good as a personal use tool to help you diagnose where you may have gone wrong in a singular run Vs others of the same class in your same group in the same raid. Even that is incomparable to the next week or previous week because gear and group or raid comp may have changed causing changes to how the clear time or boss kill time works out.
Its because of that kind of very critical nuance that I have come to view parsing as a personal diagnostic tool only, and it is in that way a very powerful tool but trying to claim its a measure of skill is very foolish.
Even in retail parsing is kinda foolish because of how different group comps and different strategies can change how a parse looks. There are “Safer” ways to do different bosses that result in slower kill times but are indeed easier, and “safer” and a lot of groups go for these methods because its overall less expensive to raid that way.
Good luck getting a group to spend more gold on raid when they dont need too.
Parsing on individual classic bosses is obviously a complete meme.
However, claiming that ranking high on overall damage for a raid or doing a top 50 speedrun through a raid is easy takes a lot of clown-makeup.
Even if so, the time reduced in raid clear times does not actually prove to be the best Min-Max when you count the time for consumes and world buffs.
And because the description of Min-Maxing has been blurred beyond belief I will make sure the REAL definition of Min-Maxing is known.
Min-Maxing: The art or skill of reaping the maximum reward for the minimal effort or input. This does not always achieve PEAK possible output values, but its a maximum possible output value balanced on the minimum effort needed in whole to achieve that task.
In short, “parsing” is not min-maxing at all or even remotely close to the same thing.
Min-Maxing is actually a much more healthy thing than the world buff meta.
It definitely does.
It takes 10m to get world buffs. The fastest speed clear of AQ40 without world buffs is 1hr 15m. The fastest with world buffs is 34m. The gold dropped in raids pays for the consumes.
Uh, no. It’s from RPGs, notably D&D. “Min-maxing is the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable. The result is a character who is excessively powerful in one particular way, but exceedingly weak in others.”
A good example of of min/maxing is “Stamina isn’t a DPS increase, so it’s a useless stat for DPS.” Other examples are picking Dwarf Priest for Fear Ward despite having weaker stats, Human Male for the Sword Specialization racial, and so on.
- Not reliable.
- You also dodged the expense on consumes that I also noted earlier.
Modern internet definitions do not qualify, the concept is far older than D&D.
Extremely reliable. You can be summoned to all the world buffs. The majority of time spent getting world buffs is literally just running to the end of DMN to receive the crown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Min-Maxing
Sorry, you’re just wrong.
min-maxing predates video games and DnD, it comes from industry production and is as old as time.
Yeah, I think industry production is definitely NOT what we’re talking about, though.
Context matters.
Definition is all that matters. If you use a word like “Inside” and then distort that to describe the sky being blue because it’s become popular to do so, this does not change the real definition, nor can you expect others to accept that new definition.
I happen to like WCl parsing, it is a really handy tool, but it’s also flawed because it’s woefully incomplete to accurately describe full contribution based on all the variables in raid.
The world buff meta can be fun too, but it’s not reliable to claim it’s a 10 min process every time, that’s ideal circumstance and the real game play will usually be different.
Also the time required to have the lock summon alts also counts in /played. Gathering the soul shards to summon takes time also, so did leveling the lock to get them summon.
The gold from raids is not enough on many servers to support the melee consumes, especially tanks, this assuming you want max possible output. Those juju don’t farm them selves, nor does the scorpoc, or the time to clear DMT, sure you can lock bot train the end of the instance but run time is involved.
Yes you can summon direct to song flower, and again lock shards.
Yes ideally 10 min, but that value is dishonest because/played isn’t just the character you’re on.
Yep, it’s a very strange phenomenon if you stop and think about it. In most games that have a difficulty setting, the hardcore players choose the most difficult mode. But in Classic, the hardcore players are compelled to play it on the easiest mode.
It’s just a huge flaw in the game design that was exposed over the years. Players broke the game, and there’s nobody around to unbreak it. Luckily, it will get fixed in TBC.
You’re trolling, right?
Also, speedruns in classic originate from people trying to clear several raids in one raid-night but at this point they have gone way past that.
It has nothing to do with efficiency but is simply a way for guilds to compete. Speedruns are incredibly expensive and time-consuming.
Sure. And minmaxing is not defined as minimizing effort and maximizing reward.
I guarantee you not a single person uses that definition when referring to gaming. Well, except maybe yourself.
This is not a “new” definition, bud. Whatever nonsense you’re spouting is something I’ve never even heard of, yet minmaxing as I described it is widely known and understood, dating back to the earliest of RPGs.
There’s really not much variation in there. It’s not “ideal,” it’s routine. Literally hundreds of thousands of people do it every week without issue. It’s not like you get an lucky MISS on your world buffs sometimes.
You can pay people to summon you. Their effort and time; your gold.
It is if you’re only needing one set of consumables because you’re able to clear all three raids in 2 hours.
Maybe if you wipe a bunch, sure, consumes won’t pay for themselves.
The E’kos are tradeable. I guess if you want to count the time it takes to fly to Winterspring, sure.
Materials for the quest turn-in are tradeable.
Many people farm DMT for gold. No doubt a Hunter in your guild does so, or someone has an alt that does so, and you can use their lockout for free. Alternatively, you can pay for someone’s ID.
There’s a person on our realm that has an entire discord dedicated to this service. They charge 5g for a summon and fully cleared DMT. They even have an Aspect of the Pack escort for you. 5g. Five. Gold.
None of this matters because:
People are probably going to play the game outside of raiding, anyway. Many serious raiders will spend that time farming gold, usually FAR more than they’ll ever need.
It does not matter if they spend 10 minutes or 100 HOURS a week farming for raid night. All that matters is what you can do in the allotted raid times your guild agreed to get together for.
Exactly this.
The point of a speedrun is to be less time consuming. I’m assuming you meant the prep time, though, but no one really judges the speed of a run based on how long it took someone to prepare for it, as if such a thing could ever be quantified, anyway.
I can’t imagine why some people act as if it’s so strange that people play the game outside of raiding. Gold farming, getting world buffs, farming pre-raid BiS, OH NoOoOoO. /shrug
I am saying that anybody who speedruns aka. competes for a top 50 spot at the end of a tier spends A LOT more time preparing & raiding than anyone who raids normally, even if would take a normal group 6 hours to clear AQ.
If you speedrun to safe time you’re definitely kidding yourself. Or you’re not actually speed-running.
That was quite literally the point of the thread…
You are trying to move the goal posts.
Simply collecting ZG, RC, DMT and DMF and songflower is dis honest in regard to the amount of actual /played that goes into the total package if you want full buffs.
I don’t think this thread ever had a point.
But yeah - here are some of the normal preparations for top 50 speedruns.
Split-raids to gear a meele-roster
Vod-review
Strategy discussions
PTR runs
Collecting world-buffs
Collecting consumes
Running the raid
I see this argument a lot and to me it seems silly. People are basically saying why play the game?
The people getting buffs are playing the game.
The people farming gold for raid consumes are playing the game.
I don’t see the argument in these statements, people are playing the game lol. Let’s be honest there isn’t much to do as far as content to sink I to in classic.
Playing the game shouldn’t be shamed, I’m on my 6th 60, and I’m lvling a holy pally so I can heal in gdkps because usually you get a heal bonus.
That’s another points most of the gold I make is raiding in gdkps.
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