Ran into an interesting situation the other evening regarding how/when Sire Denathrius transitions to Phase 3.
On most of my kills the groups have enough DPS to phase him at his usual 40% health threshold. However, in a group with significantly lower damage I noticed he transitioned around 47% after killing the last set of 4 adds.
Trying to burn an additional 7% health off the boss in Phase 3 seems unlikely (especially in a group with lower DPS). Does leaving an add alive prevent (or delay) the transition? I thought on one of the transitions that an add was still alive, but in all honestly I can’t remember.
I’ve looked high and low and can’t seem to find a solid answer. Most guides focus on having a group with enough DPS to phase him before the last set of adds even spawn. Any help would be appreciated on how to tackle this fight with lower group damage.
I’ve never seen this occur on any push, regardless of adds out. I’ve killed Sire with and without adds during the second and third sets. Even the WF heroic kill had them kill all four adds before pushing him, and it’s at 40% every time.
The adds shouldn’t have any bearing on the phase.
There is no 4th set of adds only 3 than think it’s 1 min w.e the expected time to get the 4th set would be on the normal time between adds he transitions regardless of hp.
You missed the dps check of phase 2 as such the punishment is starting phase three with more health and as such likly to snowball to a wipe as more hp on the harder phase with already low dps means you won’t met the phase 3 dps check thou you might as mabye you wasted to much dps avoiding mechanics or killing adds taking your time. In the end the punishment for missing the p2 dps check is a harder phase 3 push faster next go.
The dps to Tran p2 on time is less than the dps required to not hit the hard enrage p3 (room full of red). While p2 you get boosted dps from multi target (sword and him share hp plus adds) so if you can met a lower dps requirement to do p2 your realistically not doing p3.
Honestly speaking the answer is get better dps now days even with 210 ilvl you will have the dps to push with only three sets from the nerfs assuming the dps are only about avg on there classes. With 215-220 ilvl where most people are come heroic donny missing the 3rd set is not only quite possible but expected as the dps requirement is significantly less than when that methiod was norm (week one for top end groups in 216 a group gear) but we got higher ilvl more than making up for the lower skill. If you can push before the fourth set of adds (the forces trans) furthermore the third the issue is simply put and no offense, your dps needs to go sit on a target dummy before raid after looking up there class.
You should be having the melee cleave of the boss not targeting adds at all just aoe will kill the melee adds, while range alike between the two range adds pop there cds on the adds burst them thab swap to boss with better range same thing but use cds on boss. Adds should be dead before first hand each time.
I’ve never been in a position for this to happen, but do you have anything to back this up, or are you speculating?
This actually would contradict all known information. It’s even baked into the Dungeon Journal, as well as the spell tooltips themselves. Every version of Indignation starts with the text “Upon reaching 40% health”, which required a deliberate addition by a developer:
This isn’t even like Ravage where it’s an implied limit, but then clearly communicated to the player by the portions of the room becoming unusable, it’s a straight up contradiction of several points.
On top of that, like the posters have mentioned, I’ve been able to find basically no reports about this, and I would have expect more of this sort of question happening at the start of the tier when everyone is undergeared, and learning/experimenting/failing these mechanics more often.
Even if it does happen, it doesn’t preclude that it’s being caused by unintended effect/bug (for the reasons mentioned above). If it hasn’t always been happening, it may even be a bug caused by a recent change/build.
Like Azshara before, Denathrius starts his final phase by either hitting 40% first or a certain amount of time has happened in phase 2. I mean Darkvein is similar. She phases (aka activates the next anima container) when she her hp hits 75%, 50% and 25% or around 1.5 mins has passed since the last activation.
I mentioned Azshara because her phase 4 can occur when either one of the following 3 conditions are met. They are;
You kill both Sirens (this is the intended way)
She hits 40%
Around 2-3 mins has passed in Phase 3. On mythic this condition enrages any remaining adds, resulting in a wipe (it was originally 2 mins but blizz changed it to 3 mins. Not sure if that was a mythic only change or it affected LFR, Normal and heroic as well. Which is why I put the 2-3 min thing in).
And guess what, neither of those 3 conditions are listed as the conditions to trigger phase 4.
Denathrius starting phase 3 prior to hitting 40% hp is not a bug. It is 100% intended.
No it has always happened. My guild has seen it happen when we did normal prog and heroic prog. We will most likely see it again if we get to him on Mythic before 9.1 comes out (I doubt it, but I am hopeful). Sadly blizzard doesn’t communicate everything via the dungeon journal. The things I mentioned about Darkvein and how her fight is constructed are not mentioned in the dungeon journal at all. Sometimes blizzard leaves in mechanics for a certain difficulty that never happens on that difficulty. Look at Taloc LFR and normal in the dungeon journal and the Uldir defense beams are listed as a mechanic but they never happen on those difficulties.
Sadly blizzard doesn’t communicate everything via the dungeon journal.
These are different situations entirely. Blizzard often has multi-stage fights, or vaguely described mechanics, doesn’t explicitly tell players how the staging works, and players get to figure it out - whether’s timers, triggers, or in response to a certain event. Sometimes, after the DJ was implemented, they explicitly omitted the entry for a boss, to make the mystery part of it, like Ra-den. That’s fine. Some examples of that after the Dungeon Journal were implemented are present in Yor’sahj, Spoils of Pandaria, Blackfuse, and like you indicated Azhara/Darkvein would count. And especially for things that happen on a timer, there’s typically something to track, whether it’s an Energy bar, a buff or debuff, something.
In this case, it’s not even just a throwaway line in the Dungeon Journal, but goes further to be embedded into the spell’s tooltip as explicitly saying “Upon reaching 40%”. They put that in the tooltip, they coded him to transition at 40%, and we know that part is completely supposed to happen exactly like that.
The 40% also flows pretty naturally, seeing as P3 is time-limited by Ravage, that is clearly communicated to players, and if you happen to have taken too long in P2, and enter P3 too late, you should run into the Berserk anyway. That’s sort of the point, right?
If you could compare this to another situations, G’huun’s journal clearly says he goes to Phase 3 at 20%, and he does. Blade Lord Ta’yak says he will do Storm Unleashed at 20%, and that’s exactly when Storm Unleashed happens. Lei Shen specifically says he intermissions at 65%, and then at 30%, and this is when he phases. And so on. If any of them did any of those at a different time, the first question we would have thrown at Blizzard back then would have been “Hold up, this seems like a bug”.
If they’ve communicated this is intended, then sure, it becomes clear to say the Dungeon Journal (and the spell tooltip) is just wrong. But aside from that, it’s still possible that it’s the Dungeon Journal (and the spell tooltip) that are wrong, and they usually don’t do tooltip/Journal fixes since they’re low priority, but also equally possible that the early transition is a bug, one that they just might not be aware of yet - or gotten around to fixing since most people won’t encounter it. So far, what you’ve offered is speculation. You may be right, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it’s still speculation.
Sometimes blizzard leaves in mechanics for a certain difficulty that never happens on that difficulty. Look at Taloc LFR and normal in the dungeon journal and the Uldir defense beams are listed as a mechanic but they never happen on those difficulties.
I mean, that’s an example of a different bug, except we can more clearly say that the Encounter Journal is the wrong one there. It just will never be updated because Journal bugs are not high on their priority list. If Uldir Defensive Beam had had “In raid finder mode …” in its tooltip, there certainly would have been some questions raised.
We leave an add up going into p3, but I’m pretty sure it’s so we can funnel more dps into danny and make the transition time. Our group’s dps is generally lower as well as we have a mix of players of all skill levels.
I don’t know if leaving him up prevents the transition, just that we do.
No I am not speculating and no it dose not conflict the known info. The reason people don’t mention it is as said if you can’t beat that 4th add your dps is to low for the fight as is and as such not really a relevent point in a guide just clutter, esp when most guides point to doing only 2 sets and only doing 3 if dps is lacking. Not 4 if dps is lacking as that means you don’t have enough for the fight in the first place. Anyone who has progressed the fight with low dps or even tryed to push phase 3 to see it with a half dead team would of seen there is no fourth adds.
Not going to link a source when it is not needed or required the evidence is right there in the op statment it’s happened. Why it happened is exactly as said of the op looks at his log the timings will further match exactly as said.
Vary often the dungeon journal is incomplete on info and it is not the first time when only the expected condition to phases is listed there. Blizzards stated goal with the journal is to give players a way to understand fights at a glance. This is why the first tab keeps info rather basic. Even the abilty tab often dosent list everything.
It has always been happening with me seeing it from our progress on it in normal on the third or fourth week in shadowlands and once again when we did heroic prog.
As for your comment on it transitioning at that point being a bug or not is rather irrelevant to the topic the op asked why it happened not if it’s a bug. The answer is as I gave. If it’s a bug or not is a topic for the bug report forum as only blizzard can name something a bug or intentional. As such if you think it’s a bug go report it there until it is and blizzard comments on it or changes all the matters to the topic at hand is the answer to the question that was asked why is it happenong and how to solve it. It being a bug or not is offtopic derailment taking away from the ops question at hand.
Leaving a add up won’t prevent the transition. We do the same with 2nd set of adds leaving the range adds till after we know he will push pre third adds than toss spare dps on it.
The same for the situation the op is talking about the moment the timmer hits the expected spawn time of the 4th set the boss will push regardless of adds left.
You might be misunderstanding what I was asking; I’m obviously not debating whether it happened to the OP, I’m asking whether you have a source on this part being a dps check, or are speculating that it’s a punishment (ergo, intended) based on the fact “it happens”.
Also, as I mentioned, the reference isn’t just a dungeon journal line. I’ll link you the spell itself once again - this is the spell he casts to shift the phase, explicitly mentioning that it’s supposed to be cast upon reaching 40% health:
That’s not “incomplete” info, or “badly structured” info, that’s just contradictory.
If it is potentially a bug, and it is brought to their attention, it may be something they decide warrants a hotfix, which may be germane to the groups OP is running with. Especially if they’re done for the week, and won’t be pulling him until the next reset.
It being inteneded or not dosent change it’s a punishment or a dps check.
Not having a source on that also dosent change that. Not have I ever applied it was stated to happen by blizzard as that is irrelevant.
The fact it happens makes it a dps check and a punishment that is not speculation. That’s a valid statment based on what happens. For it to be speculation would require guesswork there is no guess work at all with my statment. As it dosent matter at all if you think it’s a bug or if it may be a bug. All that matters is what is happening and has been happening since the start of shadowlands.
If you think it’s a bug as said go take that info to the bug report fourms but unless blizzard names it so it is correct so long as we see it in the game.
It being a bug or not won’t help the op at all as the answer remains the same as even if they changed it to only push at 40 percent as said if his group can’t push pre fourth add they don’t have the dps to do phase 3 anyways. So no it wouldent be something worth not pulling this week and waiting till next week even if it was a bug, even if the bug fix was that fast (rarly is). Addressing the issue of low dps is what they need to do.
Questions if it’s a bug or not here is rather irrelevant the underlying issue that needs to be addressed is the low dps that is at a level that can be addressed by looking up your class as even a group of 210 players on heroic playing at a average level (50 percent parses) would easy make the dps check for 3 adds while they would be tight in phase 3.
You can go complain to blizzard about it being a bug all you want but it’s not really relevent to this thread and it is not speculation to call what is happening in phase 2 and has been happening since the start of shadowlands a dps check or a punishment. Blizzards intent dosent matter to what is happening all that matters is what is happening until the point it is changed.
In the end the op did not ask if it was a bug he asked what was happening and how to solve it. Bringing up questions on if it’s a bug is detailing the topic and taking away from the ops question and him getting help. Prime example most of the talk in this thread has not been pointing out ways to help the op it has been you trying to call it a bug and point out how you think it should work not how it DOSE work. How you think it should work or if it’s a bug means nothing to the thread at hand. The op is seeking help to fix the issue on his end not someone to call it a bug and move on. As even if it was a bug the op still would have to deal with it until a change happened.
If it is a bug, it would’ve been fixed by now. Clearly it is not. Besides, if you feel that it is a bug, POST IT ON THE BUG FORUMS. That is what they are for.
That is literally not how development works. There are known bugs that have been in the game for years/decades now that haven’t been fixed simply because they’re not high on the development priority. Or they’ve been missed. Sometimes, it takes a critical mass of tickets for something to become higher priority, and then get addressed.
The bug report forums are … a void that exists, but the better form to report a bug has historically been the in-game reporting tool. I already did that (and in the form of “These tooltips don’t match behaviour”) since it takes 30 seconds.
In the end the op did not ask if it was a bug he asked what was happening and how to solve it. Bringing up questions on if it’s a bug is detailing the topic and taking away from the ops question and him getting help.
This is a discussion forum, and discussing whether something could be a bug or not is perfectly fine, as long as it’s about Dungeons, Raids, and Scenarios. No one’s here trying to actually use this forum to Report a bug, and it’s certainly not replacing, or stopping anyone from providing any genius-level advice of “Do more deeps”.
I highly doubt a boss transitioning “earlier” than intended would be a very minor bug. So it would he high on the development priority. Even more so when that boss is still current content.
Unfortunately, Darielle is one of the people who refuse to accept facts when the facts conflict with their personal bias.
That’s not how development works either.
If someone gets a bug ticket, they might consider how often users will experience it, is there a workaround, and how does it impact the user. In this case, it’s fairly reasonably someone might make the call that people typically won’t see it, and it doesn’t significantly alter the fight. After that prioritisation comes around to a factor of time, and what other important bugs you have. Offhand, this hypothetically certainly would’ve taken second fiddle to the discussion of “How do we rework Stone Legion Generals?” that they would’ve been dealing with, or the many bugged World Quests, etc.
I’ve also seen bugs where, once it’s been ticketed up, people have gone “That’s actually better, if we do X and Y as well”, and therefore the bug transformed into a “feature” which we even advertised on the next release. It’s obviously entirely plausible to apply that here.
Unfortunately, Darielle is one of the people who refuse to accept facts when the facts conflict with their personal bias.
Aside from the questionably use of “facts”, what “personal bias” do you think applies here?
This is also literally an area where I don’t have skin in the game.
This specific case is not a bug. Sire’s second phase is a fixed duration and you either push him to 40%, and your remaining adds (If there are any) will teleport to the middle and reduce healing done by 20% each until they are killed, or you run out of time and all of that happens anyway at whatever % he’s at.
There’s nothing for me to prove, really. I find the situation interesting.
We’ve had many fights “always work” a certain way that was unexpected/unintended (which is all a bug really is), but either never changed, or a change was considered and then held back. Offhand, Anub’arak, Shannox, and Sartharion come to mind.
At the very least, an incorrect tooltip is still a bug, just a very very low-priority one.
it’s incomplete, not incorrect. it says the phase transition happens when his health hits 40%. it doesn’t say that’s the only thing that can trigger the transition.