So why is it that Druids have 3 full tiers of talents that are one-size fits all. It absolutely cripples our talent tree, homogenizes our specs, and removes any concept of talent synergies from our class. Several of these talents and abilities are completely unusable to Bears in most gameplay.
4 specs that all share 3 talent rows, 11 talents with the swapped out affinity. Demon Hunters have 2 specs and there is a grand total of 1 shared talent between them, and it has quite different functionality.
They couldn’t even give us the functional ones that would have drastic improvements to Guardian gameplay, like Force of Nature, Twin Moons, Brutal Slash, Savage Roar, or Cenarion Ward.
10 Likes
I want maul to function like a warriors revenge.
A free attack that procs off gore, or a similar mechanic.
It would use the same mechanic as old, “on your next attack”, but just tie it into your next mangle or thrash, and instead of a singe target attack that nobody wants, make it a cleave just like revenge.
5 Likes
We had a great bear talent: Intimidating Roar.
They replaced it with the completely worthless Tiger Dash to make our tree like all the other Druids.
8 Likes
This is inexperience speaking.
Tiger dash is invaluable for those who run high corruption and need to gtfo from eye of corruption. (its really big!)
Youre such a debbie downer though and refuse to have any fun, so youre ignorant to just how amazing (and fun) that talent is.
1 Like
…So Tiger Dash is a good talent because of an adverse corruption effect introduced in patch 8.3? What happens when said corruption effects are removed from the game? Will Tiger Dash still be good as a talent?
Honestly, I don’t think Tewa is being that unreasonable; in fact, most Guardian Druids I know are in agreement with Tewa - Tiger Dash is pretty useless.
Thanks for your time,
Barespanks
7 Likes
Tigers dash has some situational use. But my go to is wild charge.
1 Like
No, Tewa would rather cry and complain like a child and then straight up abandon the class.
Is tiger dash the best talent in that row?
Definitely not.
Could there be something better in it place?
Absolutely!
This doesnt make tiger dash worthless.
Not at all.
Yes, the sole reason I initially chose it is for my corruption set, but due to me being too lazy to swap it back when i tank other content, iv been making very good use of it. Its honestly quite useful for M+ and dealing with Awakening adds, kitting, and those times when you really need to GTFO.
When life gives you lemons…
Tewas got it burnt into his head that the talent is trash, and he stubbornly refuses to use it out of spite. But the truth of the matter is, its quite useful, and its a LOT of fun. This is a game after all.
Thanks for your time,
Tical
2 Likes
Tical in that row would you choose renewal over tigers dash/wild charge
It would depend on the content Im running.
For instance, when I run 5 masks, I often use renewal on my feral as there generally isnt any use for Tigers dash or FC. Most mechanics can be avoided by simply shifting to break snares. The heal on the other hand has saved my butt more than once. (lookin at you, Rexxar)
I’d carry that mentality over to guardian’s renewal in SL. If I’m running content that puts me in a position where heals can make or break the fight, then yes, i’ll use it over FC.
FC for guardian is more of a quality of life talent, IMO. It certainly has its uses, but I very seldomly find myself in a situation where I “need” FC. Fights like Al’Akir come to mind, but its doable without.
Currently, for those guardians who dont hate life and enjoy having fun, you NEED tiger dash if youre going to run high corruption.
1 Like
So you think a talent, that you cannot use in melee, or use when being attacked by ranged mobs, that sometimes improves upon an ability that that you already have that does the same function, that can be used to rarely counter an extreme playstyle one set of mechanics from one patch in the expansion that we already have several good counters to, is a good Bear talent?
Wow.
9 Likes
Right… I get where you’re coming from, Tical, but it seems like you’re deliberately misrepresenting Tewa’s position. There is a reason Tewa is upset about the Tiger Dash talent, and Tewa is expressing that fact openly on a public forum devoted to the Druid class. That’s how things get changed, by expressing our discontent… not by going, “Oh well - guess I’ll just bend over!” You see what I mean?
If it’s bad, just say it. Don’t try to defend it with things like, “Well, it’s useful sometimes.” The same thing could be said about a lot of things in WoW. That sends the wrong message to the dev team: it says that Guardian Druids are A-ok with the talents as they are, etc.
Thanks for your time,
Barespanks
4 Likes
This is my exact problem with the Bear discord, just happy as clams about our simplistic skills, lack of synergies within our talents, and basic as hell gameplay with virtually no nuance or skill cap within gameplay.
This is all solvable with very little effort from Blizzard, but when we have a cacophony of dissenting voices saying that “X is fine, LTP” it really undermines any efforts to get changes or improvements. Shadow Priests finally got a large list of improvements, why, well it definitely wasn’t because they were all happy as can be being trash.
10 Likes
…and rightfully so. I dont even dissagree with Tewa on this. Loosing roar sucked! That doesnt mean we should hold the talent that replaced it in contempt. Thats just being irrational. There are other ways to address this issue that dont involve cutting off your nose to spite the face.
Trying to read this paragraph gave me cancer.
says who?
Thats entirely the point of using it… to GTFO of melee.
What if I told you that you can out range a ranged attack?
mild shock
If only there was a talent for that.
Sometimes dash can expedite things in a way that the other talents cant, and im having a lot of FUN and a lot of success discovering ways to use it.
Your negative and snide remarks have little bearing on how I or others choose to have fun in a game.
More inexperience talking.
I was going to tear down your experience with the game, because WarcraftLogs and RaiderIO exist, and that feels like the appropriate response when so completely ad hominem my prior statements. But why, this achieves nothing.
I am happy that you have found some subset of the game to enjoy, because yes, the game right now is all about optimizing our mobile totem character that procs corruption effects. Sure, maybe in the areas you play, Tiger Dash is a great way to manage that type of gameplay.
But what happens when corruption goes away? Tiger Dash may find some slight use in some other small subset of the game in the future. But it isn’t some always useful talent that allows Guardian Druids to optimize their spec, it doesn’t offer synergies with other core parts of our gameplay. I am seeing other tanks get these builds where they have multiple overlapping synergies that optimize a skill to the extreme. Think Thunder Clap for Warriors in BFA or Fiery Brand for Demon Hunters in Shadowlands. These are really interesting design choices that allow a complete gameplay style built around these skills that might otherwise just be a simple part of the rotation or a panic button.
We aren’t seeing much if any of that kind of design for Bear, mostly because the synergies just don’t exist in our kit. Part of this is because we have so many under-utilized talents and talent rows, Tiger Dash being one of them. Right now it looks like Guardian is just going to be a Thrash spammer once again, without much actual gameplay around it. So far it just looks like we are going to get a subset of Legion gameplay back, and that’s pretty damn disappointing.
7 Likes
Awww… Thats cute!
He thought i was talking about endgame experience.
He even spent all that time typing out a response to it!
lmao…
Im talking about experience with dealing/playing with high corruption.
Then ill change the talent?..
Thats an option, you know.
Youre not locked into your talent choices.
Choice being the operative word here.
The fundamental beginnings of these talents trees were to do away with cookie cutter builds and offer choice in game play. Yes, blizzard dropped the ball along the way and were right back to cookie cutter builds again. However, the choice is still there. Even if it some talents dont perform as well as the others, that doesnt make them “worthless” (except lunar beam). Tigers dash has its uses outside corruption builds. Im finding great use for it in my +15 keys that has in no way hindered me by loosing vortex/FC.
For Guardian Tiger Dash is the least optimal talent. Guardian’s do not need to leave Bear Form while actively tanking and if they need to move quickly Stampeding Roar is the go too and if the need to move and can get out of form regular dash or a lightfoot potion is just as good as Tiger Dash while keeping Vortex or Wild Charge.
TL:DR Tiger Dash is a weak talent on a row that offers 2 more options that have more practical uses.
9 Likes
Exactly, the point of bringing up talents in a thread about unpruning is that we had a lot of valid, viable and fundamentally better talents for Guardian in previous expansions, but when they decided to homogenize so many of our talents to class-wide ones, it reduced our choice and viability. Here are some of the previous talents we had as Guardian that could easily fill the spot of Tiger Dash, or really any of our under performing talents.
- Cenarion Ward: A short cooldown response HoT to taking damage on the target. This already exists for resto, and would much better be suited in the spot of Renewal, as it gives us a lot of agency over healing allies. I’d love to have a bit more control over my group’s lives.
- Displacer Beast: Existed pretty recently in Tiger Dash’s spot and was far more useful as it included a solution to the critical problem of Tiger Dash, a blink. It also didn’t remove another skill from our bar to use, which was great! It still had its own problems, namely the shift to cat occurred with the blink, which would occasionally allow mobs to get a melee attack in the exact moment you were no longer bear. This is actually the exact same functionality as Soulshape upcoming in Shadowlands, and knowing Blizzard, I expect this exact same problem.
- Faerie Swarm: A single target slow with a armor debuff to the target. Its almost like the Bear kit had a lot of the tools we needed to be strong tanks, but they removed them inexplicably.
- Force of Nature: AoE taunt mobs that spawn for a short time. Removed and given exclusive to Moonkins. I am seeing a pattern here.
- Dream of Cenarius: Heals give a damage boost to your next attack, damage spells (specifically the pew pew kind) give a healing bonus to your next heal. Not exactly what’s needed these days, but Frenzied Regen was included in the list of heals, so it turns Frenzied Regen into a modest damage buff. Also would give a reason to Moonkin or Resto for a cast or two with those affinities.
These were all part of our kit in Mists, some extending up until Legion. Any one would be a welcome addition to our kit.
11 Likes
Don’t forget Fae Silence and Intimidating Roar.
4 Likes
Of course they dont.
If youre content like Tewa is of just being meat sack mana sponge, by all means, you do you. For those who actually enjoy the class and wish to look for ways to spice up their gameplay with out of the box thinking and tricks that require thought and skill, they absolutely can leave bear form while tanking, and should!
Threads like like this exist because the vast majority of players either lack the skill or the ingenuity to use their full arsenal because :
- the guides/forum sheep told them not to.
- they dont know how to use them properly… or understand how they work.
Case in point…
Both comments are objectively false.
- “iTs a SpElL wE alReAdY HaVE”
Not even remotely close.
Tiger dash is an initial 200% on a 45 second cd
vs
60% on a 120 second cd.
Due to our lack of slow, and dash’s longer cooldown, it is not an effective, nor reliable way to move as a tank. 60% is worthless (correct use of the term).
Tigers dash on the other hand, sends you careening at mach chicken speeds across the map, and is readily available again for your next pull.
- “bUt yOu hAVe rOAr”
Again… 60% vs an initial 200%, and shorter cd.
Tigers dash is self serving while Roar is utility for the group.
If youre using stampeding roar as a means to escape fire and not to expedite your party’s progress throughout the dungeon, you arent using your tool kit correctly and are dead weight.
Light foot is certainly an option if your bank can support it. however, Its 50% slower, has a 1min cd, and youre locking yourself out of using better pots.
My server currently has it listed at 70g.
So, in a 30-40 minute run you’re looking at 2100-2800g per run if youre using it on cooldown. (which I often do with tigers dash).
What separates the men from the boys in regards to who is effectively a better tank is not who takes the least damage. Its placement and crowd control. Just watch any MDI, the tanks spend the majority of their time not taking. Rather, they’re controlling the movement and pathing of mobs through stuns, slows, los and game hacks (like evade/range ports).
In capable hands, Tigers dash is an effective means of crowd/mechanic control.
The fact that youre both viewing it as an “oh crap/kitty go zoom” button is why you fail to see its value. Mainly because you were told to think so by others and never tired for yourself, and lack the knowhow to make it work.
Case in point:
Typhoon exists, you donut.
1 Like
Lightfoot Potion is not 50% slower. It is a 150% Speed Increase on a 1 Min CD that also lets me keep Vortex or Wild Charge. Oh and I can use Lightfoot Potion in Bear Form. 5 Star Moss and an Alchemist is greater than Tiger Dash.
Tiger Dash might be fine to run in unrated PVP, a Normal Raid or up to a M+15 but anything more than that and a Tyranical Boss or a Fortified Add is going to splat you n cat form while actively tanking.
Edit - Also how often do you need to use Dash while tanking?
2 Likes