You… you’re trolling right? Oh wait, this is you we’re talking about.
Mastery may not scale as well as vers, however compared to OTHER TANKS mastery for druids does really well. It is mitigation on all fronts, where some tanks can only use their mastery to mitigate phys. (BrM, War, DH) which is why in later tiers you see shifts simply because of how mastery affects classes, this also works for dps cases too, like frost vs unholy dk dps in MoP. Frost was stronger at lesser gear but because unholy had the stronger mastery, at higher gear unholy pulled ahead.
MoP mastery was garbage. while it was a ‘lazy’ increase to phys armor, look at other masteries of that time. Like warrior. Who’d still have a mastery to increase phys defense, but also scaled well with actionable play such as when you used shield block. Druid mastery was not better than any other tank mastery. It was at all points inferior and then at a point USELESS because you could hit armor cap in SoO early. You could hit armor cap pretty easy in ToT too.
This also does not change the fact that it was a mastery unlike others that started with innate diminishing returns. 1% mastery for a warrior would be 1% to critical block. thus 1% effectively additional damage resist (not the exact numbers, but to put a point). 2% mastery 2% critical block, 2% damage resist.
Look at the druid, let’s even PRETEND it started at 1% mastery was 2% armor and 2% damage resistance (it wasn’t, it wasn’t even equivalent to the 1%) You get 2% mastery, 2% armor, but because how damage reduction got lesser the higher armor you got, it’d be 3%. 3% mastery, 3% armor. 3.8% damage reduction. It diminished due to how armor worked. It wasn’t a straight up damage reduction. It was a linear scale to armor, but the ARMOR’s reduction to phys damage is why it sucked. If you don’t understand this, then you’ve no right to discuss anything else here. You’re way out of your league.
Problem. Mastery gives AP. All tanks mitigation scales with their mainstat, I.E. AP. Warriors get larger IPs, monks get more stagger, dh self heal more, etc.
That shift didn’t happen in Legion though, and mastery is largely the same…?
You’re going back to MoP for your examples? Gear scaling has been normalized since WoD, and stat scaling has been heavily reduced since BFA. Examples of specs “scaling really well with stats” are rare. One of the few remaining examples is fire mage.
Specs power has to do with tuning and encounter design/mechanics. Stat scaling is a small, small portion of the pot that is how a spec performs.
Yes you…you hit the armor cap. You could literally not mitigate physical damage any more with armor. Which allowed for the focusing on stacking crit, agi, and haste that made guardian pretty damn strong in SoO. High damage, second only really to warrior, good self sustain, and all around high durability. The mastery may have been lazy and boring as hell, but it was still objectively strong.
Jesus, Christ, the basis for tanking with bear started with “hit armor cap”. Regardless of liking it or not, it was objectively strong.
And love how you completely ignored being wrong about current mastery.
This literally has nothing to do with the conversation. You’re doing that 'changing what you said/others said to pretend you had a point. You don’t.
This has happened since MoP… The example I just gave? DK dps in MoP? Yeah, it was there. A class can have a strong base, but a terrible mastery which hurts their progression with higher mastery. Another good example. Disc priest had good damage at low gear compared to other dps classes, but the moment mastery and higher gear comes into play, their damage will NOT scale to be as close. “gear scaling is normalized” means nothing and you didn’t even qualify it as being relevant for any reason other than to sound contrarian. Sorry, but anyone who knows how to read through the text would realize you say things that mean nothing. Ya know, ‘Word salad’. Yes, the examples between a classes spec has been minimized since, but it exists, and between classes it’s still important to note because you’ll see tanks who have masteries that mitigate against magic (Paladin, Druid, DK) without ANY other changes start doing slightly better than lower levels against higher magic fights. This doesn’t mean that druid will be a better tank than a warrior or monk against a magic fight, just that the difference of effectiveness for the class changes. A monk sees no change to magic tanking from 0 - 50% mastery. A druid will see some difference from 0-5% mastery.
You’re just proving you’re not adept to be talking about this. being able to hit cap had nothing to do with being able then to move onto crit/agi and haste. These were independant of each other except to reforge out of mastery. that doesn’t mean the MASTERY WAS GOOD. I didn’t say druids sucked at tanking, just that MASTERY wasn’t good. (keep on topic, cupcake)
We do agree with WoD’s bear mastery being awful. But at the very least it had SOME use past armor cap. Although it was always garbage as it worked only one in two ways.
Get hit by weak attack, mitigate a weak or big attack by a small amount.
Get hit by a big attack, mitigate that huge mastery shield… on its next weak attack.
Which was awful planning. But again, isn’t relevant to anything here.
I was wrong about the current mastery? I didn’t say it was a better stat than verse. You’re the one that made that faulty inference and then tried putting those words in my mouth. I was comparing it as a mastery vs other tanks which is evident when I said
This should have told you I wasn’t saying bears were strong, and I had to be comparing it to something. Hmm, but what is that logical inference to something? Could it be… OTHER TANK MASTERIES?!
This is objectively wrong. Mastery increases stagger, IP, and healing. That’s not “only physical damage”
I’m not making an inference to anything you’re saying. I’m looking at what you type, and responding to what you type. Not a psychic.
You said that guardian mastery scales well. It objectively does not. It scales far too slow, and vers scales better. Vers doesn’t scale well for anyone, due to being static. That says something.
Not going to lie, I don’t want to go through old logs of SoO and ToT to continue to debate this point. I will, and I’m willing to. Christ knows I’ve done it enough over in the warrior forums. I’m going to do something I rarely do.
Agree to disagree.
Doesn’t help with magic mitigation any more than the other three tanks you listed. Although in the same way as them, it does.
Monk stagger is not based on AP, it’s based on agility. Mastery literally does not affect it. Now if it was based on AP instead of agility it would affect it.
Warriors is based on Attack power, so to some extent mastery affects it, but not that much. Which is why I used the MONK example.
DK is magic mitigation via stronger heals and stronger shields, you can heal after the damage is taken or put the shield up to block more of the magic damage.
Either way, the DK does have more magic mitigation. The mastery effect increases the shield, the mastery’s AP increases the heal amount which again translates into how strong the shield is so it double dips.
DH has the same issue with monks; it’s based off agility not attack power. Except, nothing about their mastery affects magic damage. Demon spikes increases armor and parry chance, where monk stagger takes percent of agility, and then is 35% as effective on magic.
Do we need to go on… Let’s use those MoP logs! I’d LOVE to go over numbers directly! The thing I do for FUNSIES
Oh, and I almost forgot, monk also gains healing from Gift of the Ox, chi wave/chi burst, dampen harm, and guard. But those don’t matter either, right.
My bad, guess they changed it as it used to just be a shield. Either way, the healing is still part of ‘magic mitigation’ just it’s used reactively and not proactively.
No, no it is not. Agi gives AP, but AP and agi are not the same thing. If it says it scales off Agi, it scales off agi, if it scales off AP, it scales off all AP sources. This one isn’t that hard and I’m surprised you’d even say this because now you’ve completely invalidated yourself to ANYONE on these boards.
Okay, so those scale with AP, my bad, I gloss over DH as I don’t really care about them but I should have looked to see if it was %, stam, agi or AP scaling.
Yeah, but this is the same for all tanks, like you said. It still doesn’t mean mastery somehow is amazing for magic mitigation on these characters. Do you want to keep shifting the goalpost now that you’re also defeating parts of your own original argument?
BFA, when they cut down on all the self healing and magic mitigation tanks have, yeah. Because reasons.
Correct, but it’s not tied to their mastery. At least, not with death strike. Blood plague, blooddrinker, and consumption all scale with AP though.
I’m not shifting anything. You said
Both statements are objectively false. That’s all I’ve been arguing. Mastery does help magic mitigation, for more than just the three tank specs you listed.
The 15% damage buff on the PTR has made no difference to our dps, it has to be more. Bears are still the lowest dps tank right now even with the changes.