Not what I said.
It is. Factually correct. That both warrior and druid. Have the option. To spend rage for offense, or for defense. That is the extent of what I said. Where am I wrong.
because Druids HAVE to use it for defense to have defensives used and not use it for their offensives less their defensives suffer.
Warriors don’t HAVE to make that choice since they get free procs of both defensives AND offensives so the rage need isn’t 100% necessary to use it on offense as you’ll get it naturally. Also, comparison of rage regen.
Let’s look at it this way. Since Druids need to keep that rage for defensives and only defensives unless they outgear the content, that means they NEED rage more compared to warriors. What do we see though? Rage regen for warriors is far superior.
Also of note, ignore pain >>>>> frenzied rejuv.
At a certain point shield block is going to be better than ironfur per use, even if right now iron fur is a higher damage mitigation currently due to not having high armor for level content. Blocking damage will be better than just relying on heavier armor. Not to mention you’re more likely to have shield block proc than ironfur.
To make the argument comparable, Druids would need more ways to be able to use maul/ironfur/frenzied rejuv that doesn’t use up rage. Then we could even begin to start comparing them.
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You’re not going to win the argument against him. He’s the sibling that stand outside your room, but puts his arm in and claims he’s not in your room.
In actuality, he’s right. He’s not standing in your room, although part of him is in your room.
Same difference. He’s taking what he says word for word as his argument. Yes, warriors and bears can use rage for offense or defense.
But the unspoken implication that the rage regen is similar and therefore they are similar is what you won’t get him to admit because it’s simply implied and unspoken and therefor cannot be quoted “to prove a point”
Better off just dropping it
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I…I never said that though. I didn’t imply it. I didn’t equate either one to the other. The principle is the same, that’s it. You’re the ones not only reading into it further than I ever made it so, you’re taking offense to an idea I never actually put out into the world.
Also, glad you’re back. Guardian does not scale with gear better than any other tank. Stop spreading that crap.
That’s exactly what I said though ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
you repeated what I said, just using different words.
And how does Guardian not scale better?
A 10ilvl upgrade in, say a chest piece, will increase the benefit of Iron Fur more than a 10ilvl upgrade in a chest piece would increase the benefit of a Death Strike.
More Agility = more Armor from Iron Fur
More Strength/Crit/Haste =/= more healing from a death strike.
No, not more healing from a death strike. Although, more death strikes. Exactly like what happened in Legion at the end, when blood suddenly could self sustain entirely. It won’t be that dramatic for anyone this expansion, but the watered-down result will the same. Bears get more armor from Ironfur and healing from FR. DKs get more healing from DS and more armor from Boneshield. Warriors get more absorb from IP and more block from SB. Pallies get more armor from SotR and more healing from LotP. Monks get more reduction from stagger and more healing from CF.
I don’t know DH so I don’t comment on them.
Every tank gains more uptime on their AM, more damage reduction, and more self sustain from more gear.
Almost like the different words mean something else?!
In the beginning of the conversation this reason was why maul =/= revenge. Not sure how it came back to this for an entire comparison of playstyle.
The point originally was making maul usable and incentivizing moments of choosing damage when you didnt need the armor.
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Correct. Now assuming that we’re upgrading the exact same piece, just doing a 10 ilvl upgrade, the increase in Agility yields better results than the secondary stat increase in just 10 ilvl.
Iron fur is based off Agility. And as such, the stat doesn’t depreciate in value. Whereas secondaries, like Haste for a BDK will hit a point where another point in Haste is less effective than another point in Vers (just examples, I dunno what stats DKs prioritize).
With an ilvl of 999, IF will be ridiculous. The armor bonus would be insane. At ilvl 999, Death Strike will still only heal 25% of damage received in the last X amount of seconds.
For each single use of your on use AM, a bears benefit is greater than that of a DKs
Throughout the course of a 3 hour raid? Blood DK will still be better in the long run. As far as active mitigation is concerned, per single use, the difference between ilvl 100 and ilvl 900 is more apparent and has a greater benefit for a bear, than it would for a DK for example. Thus how Bear scales better with gear than other tanks (as far as AM is concerned)
Primary stat (including stamina) has good benefit across the board for all tanks. Its Iron fur, Stagger, Demon Spikes, Death Strike (heals a minimum of 7% of your health), etc.
I dont think bears will magically scale into the heavens and soar over the other tanks off some agility upgrades.
Critical block for Warriors and content where damage recieved for Death Strike is the greater value are also not as easy to compare when looking at primary values.
Tanks also have so many accompanying bonuses to help scaling differences like celestial fortune, bear mastery, etc.
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Right. I’m not claiming that bears are going to move up ranks as they upgrade gear. With all things considered, bears will still be at the bottom.
But as far as active mitigation goes, Bears IF scales the best with gear. They see the biggest difference with their AM in one use, over the course of say 100 ilvls, as compared to other tanks. That’s all I’m getting at
That’s hard. Maul either needs a proc, a large damage increase, or an execute effect. Even when I’m in the perfect state of only have 1-2 mobs left in a pack, having ironfur stacks, and having near max rage it still feels like a waste to hit maul. It’s been a while since I compared, but doesn’t mangle/GG moonfire/and pulverize all do more damage?
And that’s basically the only time I’d consider using it. Maybe an on add like the AD Spirit of Gold?
Sabertooth for maul!
Iron tooth?
Iron paws?
Whatever… we can work out the names after. But I think maul extending iron fur is the best idea since I came up with primal wrath!
Having maul proc for free, or being tied to IF and being useful for a change is a nice idea, I would still much rather receive things for our toolkit like a thrash slow, dps CD, or FR fixes.
I’ll never turn down reworks that help up, but we should really get our baseline back to par first.
Yes I agree 100%
How guardians ever lost their slow in the first place… and why feral still has one tied to take is beyond me.
But that’s all been addressed one thousand times over and I’m not one for repeating myself.
I am leveling up a Guardian do they at the very least feel better from the changes?
Remove Corrupt w/o being dropped from bear is nice, feels good to have that little bit of extra utility/safety. Any drop in cost of IF is welcomed, and doesn’t feel to bad.
Everything else just feels kind of meh at this point IMHO. The numbers in dmg aren’t dramatic enough to make it really feel like a major impact. but that’s just my exp playing around in the PTR.
I just want to say, while ironfur will GIVE more armor, the damage mitigation will eventually start to cap, like say, one ironfur may reduce phys damage by 10%, get too much gear, one ironfur is going to start reducing damage by 9, 8, and then 7%. You’ll see this more readily if you double stack ironfur where the second one won’t reduce physical damage as much as the first because of how the diminishing returns on armor to damage reduction hits. (which is also why when in MoP guardians had ‘extra armor’ as their mastery, it was garbage. Totally capable of being armor capped and the more mastery you had the worse each % of mastery was.)
However, our one saving grace is that guardian mastery is currently really strong and scales really well. If only the rest of the kit was reflective of it. I’ve heard people say guardian mastery sucks, maybe because it’s the only ‘reactive mitigation’ instead of proactive, but 15% extra stam and bonus to healing is still equal to 15% damage mitigation from all sources. You just need someone to heal after the damage is done.
Based off what.
It does, armor has a DR and a hard cap.
Haste doesn’t hit a soft cap until 100%, at which point the GCD cannot be reduced any further at .75 seconds. So sure, at 100% base haste, DKs will start to scale slower.
Every tank’s AM scales with their gear though. What are you not getting.
Even DKs. They gain more armor from their STR. You’re basing this off of nothing but feelycrafting and wishful thinking.
Mastery doesn’t scale well though. At a combined 2025 of vers and mastery, vers outscales mastery in terms of defense, and vers is already better for damage.
MoP mastery was one of the best for raw tankiness. Hitting the armor cap was relatively easy with heroic SoO gear, and then going into the rage build gave bear good damage and avoidance to boot.
An example of a bad guardian mastery would be WoD. It was largely a joke.