Glacial Advance - The answer to the 2h vs Dual Wield Scaling Debate?

Classes Death Knight
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Hi all and thank you for taking the time to read my post :blush: my hope is that someone with a deeper understanding of the class & a better ability to communicate may take something from this and help to bring 2h closer to the historically stronger DW build.

The Issue

I know there is a lot of concern regarding the re-introduction of the 2-Handed Frost playstyle, especially in regards to the Killing Machine bonus not scaling anywhere near as well as the mastery bonuses from taking the Razorice enchant on the second weapon in a Dual Wield play style; especially late into the expansion as has historically been the case.

This second enchant has made frost strike, as well as a Frost Death Knights numerous other abilities (more recently Frostscythe, Breath and Whelps) significantly more damaging, while Killing Machine’s bonuses from the 2h playstyle never scaled as well.

One thing to bare in mind is that Dual Wield is likely to lose out on the Fallen Crusader buff to have Razorice & the Increased Runic Power Bank for a Breath of Sindragosa build, which may bring the numbers closer together also

A Potential Solution

The solution to the problem I feel comes from the talent Glacial Advance. I believe that this would help a 2-handed playstyle Frost Death Knight still be able to take advantage of the benefits that the Dual Wield playstyle benefits from without the scaling issues; albeit they will be hamstrung into taking Glacial Advance as a talent over Gathering Storm or Hypothermic Presence (more on this later)

Glacial Advances current tooltip on the PTR states that the spell “summons glacial spikes that advance forward, each dealing XX attack power % frost damage, and applying Razorice to all near its eruption point.”

If Glacial Advance does indeed inflict Razorice on the targets as per the tooltip, then a 2h play style will still close the gap on the damage of Frost Strike that has historically been a scaling issue in the past (2h does 45% damage, Dual Wield does 31% x 2). I believe that this method will take 2h away from the Breath Build and steer it more towards a strong Obliteration build, which offers a very different stylistic and thematic playstyle to the Breath of Sindragosa, which is where I believe a Dual Wield build belongs.

Talent Synergies

2 Hander - Icy Talons / Murderous Efficiency / Frostscythe or Avalanche / Glacial Advance / Obliteration.

This is based around the strengths of the 2h build, which is the consumption of Killing Machine. Stacking Icy Talons and Murderous Efficiency keeps a steady income of Killing Machine Procs and refunded rune states.

If Glacial Advance spreads Razorice to all of the inflicted targets, it makes for a strong AoE build.

Frostscythe would allow for strong on demand AoE especially when paired with Obliteration, while Avalanche combined with the new frost Legendary “ *RAGE OF THE FROZEN CHAMPION - Obliterate has a 15% increased chance to trigger [Rime] and [Howling Blast] generates Runic Power while [Rime] is active” will have extremely good synergy for a sustained single target AoE with what I would call ‘major cleave’. I feel that without the spread of Razorice via Glacial Advance, which will be the major RP spender for a 2h Obliteration build, this legendary won’t get picked over Koltira’s Favour, as well as suffering long term due to so much of Frost’s AoE being frost damage based.

This works as the amount of Killing Machine procs would be accelerated due to Icy Talons, the rime from the legendary feeds into more Glacial Advance spending, and a 2h build stays as a Big Hitting Obliteration spam build reacting to procs and weaving in Glacial Advance and RW; allowing the Dual Wield build to be tailored with a lot more nuance with Gathering Storm & Hypothermic Presence with Breath and other Legendaries.

I also feel that for a breath build Venthyr is absolutely necessary, and any Frost Death Knight will be hamstrung into choosing that covenant. This may have major repercussions if one playstyle pulls too far ahead of the other in terms of performance.

With an alternative Obliteration build, the other covenants begin to look more appealing; especially Night Fae which will boost the Death Knight’s strength and lead to hefty Obliteration numbers.

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Frost scythe is a dead talent at the moment. Just using regular obliterate+avalance blows it out of the water.

It depends on whether or not applying razorice is an intended part of the spell, or a tooltip error meant to convey it will apply your razorice like a normal attack if you have that runeforge. Right now it doesnt apply it if you don’t have razorice.

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Hi Cornbread, thanks for the response.

I didn’t think it did, but it would definitely seem like a viable solution if it did to help balance out the scaling issues with mastery that take Dual Wield off into the sunset late in the expansions.

I feel like a Glacial Advance (if it applies Razor Ice) Howling Blast (with the Legendary) Remorseless Winter and Avalanche build could really put out some decent AoE damage, allowing the runes to be spent on Obliterate. With Frosts awful mobility it would be extremely punishing/beneficial to the DK to be caught in close.

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You currently need razorice equipped for GA to spread it.

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I dont think people want to spend almost 30 seconds applying razorice and that is after you get enough RP to use Glacial Advance. That is a lot of ramp up for something with an easy fix. They can make Might apply Razorice or give it a flat 15% Frost buff, then push the 25% obliterate damage into Obliteration so it gives a passive obliterate boost for any weapon.

The entire point of Might was to try to bridge the gap of DW having an extra runeforge, so why not just basically give 2h that extra runeforge instead of what they are doing?

Its still beta, if there is still these problems people are seeing even with the reintroduction of MotFW, then change it so they are actually more even.

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Don’t think it will take this long. You can tab through targets to help with application for instance.

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Even with the target cap they’ll put up for Frostscythe, if I’m using RI as a MH Runeforge. I’ll probably stick with it. It doesn’t have a cooldown so long as you have a rune and it only cost one. It also applies RI to multiple targets, capped or not, that’s still a pretty big plus for Frostscythe. My biggest gripe with GA is that it costs equivalent to 4 GCDs and the tooltip lies to you about applying Razorice without stating you need RI to apply it to begin with.

Avalanche is good in Shadowlands? What in Arthas’ balls is going on!?

Oh and the problem further stems from GA. Yes, 2h is gonna have more KM weight as well as RA gives 5 AP instead of 3. I’ll probably stick to 15% more Frost Damage and 15% more Strength. They’re way too good to pass up.

2h is gonna need more than 25% increased Obliterate damage to compete. Relying on KM58 to do more damage is not going to be enough for 2h to scale.

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Neither of the other two offer anything on single target. Frostscythe on single target is a very niche case use if you have a KM proc up, and 1 rune, and need to spend that rune to get 10 runic power to keep IT at max stats, but that’s a situation you can play to avoid most of the time. Avalanche is the only option providing any ST damage.

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Isn’t Frostscythe also used to efficiently reduce the CD of PoF through icecap and costing 1 rune to dump KM?

Then again, Icecap will be much weaker in Shadowlands


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The value of Obliteration for 2h is much, much higher than Icecap. I’m not doing any testing or theorycrafting for DW, so I can’t say for sure how good Icecap will be there.

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If Glacial Advance just applied razorice like is being asked instead of requiring to have Razorice, it has a what? 5 second CD now? (reduced by haste) so it would be 25 seconds to apply razorice. It would take that long. You are going under the assumption that they had razorice like it works already and therefore GA wouldnt be needed. It doesnt matter how many targets you tab through if you cant use the ability within a certain amount of time and it was the only source for razorice.

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Yes, its crits do reduce Icecap. The big thing is that it needs crit to actually work so its more of a late game talent unless the change to it (rudeced by 4 sec instead of 3) plays a major roll. So many people are testing 2h right now and leaving the spec to fall into an area where its not being tested because “just get rid of DW if its a problem” which to me is pretty telling. Why wasnt KM rank 2 tested until Might even came out? Its something new. Has Icecap been tested to see if it reduces the CD by 4 seconds? Ive seen no talk about it. So far it looks like they tested long breath windows and then went straight into 2h testing which is a major problem. If people dont like the spec then they shouldnt play it. A weapon does not make the spec.

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My point was that you’d tba through targets and apply razorice with your normal abilities, and then GA would help to apply to everything at once.

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Ok? How does that have at all anything to do with what I said about what is being talked about in this thread. Its about giving 2h a way to apply razorice through GA which has a CD. Ignoring that you have to have razorice to do it, if it did apply it then it would take 25 seconds to do it.

Your suggestion is basically for DW, once its stacked up you press GA to basically pestilence your Razorice.

Not to mention that Might is supposed to bridge the gap between DW and 2h because DW gets an extra runeforge. If they then give 2h a way to apply razorice on top of the answer for their runeforge disparity, then Might needs to be taken away since the problem would be solved that 2h now gets the second runeforge.

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I know Frostscythe reduces CD of Icecap. I was wondering if people use Frostscythe as a single target ability to efficiently dump KM with 1 rune and reduce CD of PoF through Icecap.

Like I’m trying to determine Avalanche’s value vs Frostscythe’s unconventional usage of it on ST. Avalanche, to me, is a boring passive that procs off when you use Rime.

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Fostscythe on KM procs was mostly valuable when we had lots of downtime. Given than Obliterate now has lots more value on KM proc, I can’t see frostscythe being worth it on single target.

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Then should MotFW include Frostscythe as another damage increase then?

Keep in mind, I will still most likely DW in Shadowlands.

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Possibly, not sure why exactly.

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Well, it kinda make sense if you think about it.

2h KM procs are very valuable. No reason to exclude Frostscythe from it.

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It does present an issue in AoE where FsC simply deals less damage on 5 targets compared to a st Oblit.

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