So you would be okay with other people wanting even more changes after yours got put in? Surely you see how quickly this road leads right to retail. We know this, because it’s literally happened in the past.
People whined about tank/healer shortages, or about how they didn’t want to miss out on dps fun by playing tank/healer. Blizzard cracked, and gave dual spec. Spec identity took a hit. But that still wasn’t enough for people to get instantly into a dungeon, all those people who can only play for 45 minutes at a time were upset. So in comes LFG, and queues you right into a dungeon, no pesky social interactions, just click the button and away you go.
Except, the people with only 30 minute sessions were still being left out. So can’t have long dungeons anymore, gotta be bite sized. Oops, you did all that, why can’t we queue for raids? Well, there’s LFR. But boy, sure is a lot of effort to skill up professions, why should I have to do that? Why can’t I just start at the baseline of every new expansion? In comes profession changes of legion.
My complaint is that it’s a minor inconvenience with a known feature that would fix it with no downside. Yet we’ve got the usual forum sh*tshow over it even being suggested in a single thread, because the typical wow forum user is obsessed with slippery slopes.
That’s not how it works though. You are literally using the “well, we got some changes, why can’t we have more?” argument to support the ones you want. That same argument works for EVERY QOL change between TBC and shadowlands.
One thing that people often mention when talking about retail is they didn’t like the changes to talent trees. It’s one of the reasons I quit retail. But adding dual spec doesn’t mean the talent trees have to be changed. They are two separate changes, one I like and another that caused me to quit. I could go on with several separate changes some I liked and others I didn’t, but I did that a year ago in another thread. None of those changes are interdependent. It’s a complex world and it requires complex thinking and nuance to understand it. Clearly you’re not capable of that.
And you should absolutely support the changes you want. This isn’t personal. I’m not against you as a player and how you want to play. My only purpose in this thread is to support the arguments for making as few changes as possible. Maybe even get lucky and convince some of you.
I don’t take any of this personally, this is all just debate about dual spec. It seems to rather upset some people, I just don’t refrain from debating someone that’s getting upset about something if they come at me over it.
I’m supporting a change I feel would be beneficial for the game, and pointing out that there’s no new precedent to be set because said precedent has already been set. Me supporting one change does not mean I automatically support every change or have to support every change.
it’s so sad watching the same processes that gave us retail coming back for the classic versions. Soon we’ll be begging blizzard for “classic classic servers”.
It’s less sad, and more frustrating. What’s the old adage? “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, and expecting different results”.
Blizzard would never do it, but I’d have loved to see “actually classic” AND “some changes” servers. Just to see which camp IS the larger. It would be a similar result to PvP vs PvE servers imo, you’d have people on dead PvE servers demanding that the lively PvP servers be turned into PvE servers (which eventually happened in retail). People want to be where everyone else is, but are never actually willing to abide by whatever the norm of that place is, they inevitably want to change it to be like where ever they just left.
I don’t subscribe to the slippery slope argument. Blizzard can draw the line anywhere they want. If you do it’s already too late. We’re already on the slippery slope with the boost etc. and it’s inevitable we’ll get all the changes you listed. If the slippery slope slide can be stopped before dual spec it can be stopped after it as well
Going to town, spending gold to artificially refund talent points, awkwardly putting in 49 talent points within a minute while not having interacted with your new talent tree for who knows how long but gaining all the new abilities immediately (dual spec or man made dual spec via abuse), gold cost compounds to discourage reuse.
Talents in general are meaningful, they potentially change your classes role and more importantly they make my class different than your class on a small level. To think this service offered in game was designed in order to be abused as is in a dual spec fashion, is silly. It was there for respite in case you needed it, not as a game feature.
Min maxxers changed that and now minmaxxing is the norm. To constantly respec to accommodate one task in game to only respec again within days and accommodate another task, trivializes your choice in spec, and ripples throughout the server to the point specs are now less cool less important. If your spec meant something, you would find the game is more diverse and organic rather than the tryharding, minmax, and meta that dominates our game today.
I get ya. There’s definitely part of me that wants to have access to dual-spec too. I’m not a zealot. I just know that once we start adding features it’s super hard to stop asking for more and more. We all play the same game and pay the same sub. If I were to get dual-spec then how is it fair to deny the guy who wants the gear manager, or transmog (because lets be real, some BC gear is butt ugly), or pet battles, or…
Except we’re not. The boost has almost a non-existent impact on HOW the game is played. People still run dungeons, people still level alts, people still pay mages to boost them. Dual spec would be a fundamental change to how people play the game, just like LFG queue, and cross realm play. It’s disingenuous to try and claim those two are even remotely close to one another in the grand scheme of things.
I’ve been playing this game since vanilla and reading the forums since then too. That didn’t happen. Warmode was added because blizzard could not deal with so many players on pvp servers constantly complaining about ganking and corpse camping and other so called “abuses” of world pvp
PvE re-rolls that wanted to be on the high pop PvP servers, but whined incessantly about the consequences of being on a PvP server. It’s a near direct correlation to these “Change TBC to be more like retail” threads, people who clearly don’t want to be here, except for the large hype and current interest having drawn them here. Who realistically, want to play retail, not classic.
To me, that feels like gambling. Yes, ultimately Blizzard is in control (not that makes me feel good or anything), but this argument makes think of “well I already did some m e t h, I might be able to stop or I won’t, so might as well try the crack”.
I mean, in terms of arguing about how little a feature matters, none of those features matter. People who got up in arms about pet battles + transmog are definitely deserving of the hard eye-roll.
And multiple addons already simulate the gear manager. Adding in features to decrease necessary addons is, again, only a positive in my book. The in-dungeon maps with loot listed, the placeable raid markers, these are things that could be added to the game, that would improve it slightly, and have absolutely no downsides.
That’s kind of my point. Individually, each feature is miniscule. “Why not add the barber shop… who could possibly have a problem with the barber shop?” “Why not add this feature? There’s already an addon that does thing X.”
You are right, many of those features are completely benign. That’s how snowballs get started.
I’m either happy or I don’t care about the changes blizzard has made to classic so far. I would never advocate for a boost as I have a few 60’s but I’m happy it was limited to one, with barely adequate gear, and not for the new races. I don’t care that blizzard limited people to 30 dungeons a day as I have never done that many in 15 years of playing. I think multiboxxing is bad for the game so I like those changes too. I could go on. Maybe some people quit over it but if it’s gambling so far I’ve been winning every roll.
