Give us a game that is HARD, requires EFFORT, and requires COOPERATION

You’ve misunderstood the post. I’m happy with the level of effort and cooperation required in classic today. What’s missing is the hard.

You seem to think that the game cannot possibly be hard because “we are 15 years older” or our “internet connection is better”. This is false. Raids boss health/damage can be retuned. Gimmicks like world buffs can be nerfed. There are lots of ways that classic content can be made hard. Just look at the Sapphiron 2-seconds-vs-1-second issue, where people were literally saying that the boss would be unbeatable if the 2-second bug was fixed. Even if that were true, Blizzard could have chosen a middle ground where it still ticks every 2 seconds, but deals 50% more damage.

When Classic launched, it was a huge deal. Since then, subs have dropped off a cliff - it’s hard to remain motivated when you’ve steamrolled all content within 2 weeks of a raid’s release. Blizzard needs to bring back the hard.

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Mythic raiding and mythic plus on retail. Retail is not the devil. You can play both games, unless they decide to overlap launch dates like this current double launch…

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Some bosses already can 2-shot a Tank if they’re not wearing heavy EH gear, and some bosses already blow up the DPS/Healers if the mechanic that is to be avoided hits them. On any fight that lacks these things, increasing Health/Damage wouldn’t actually change anything. A much harder hitting and beefier Fankriss would still get zerged down because the adds and the boss just don’t do anything.

People zerg these bosses all the time already without wbuffs. I haven’t bothered to collect one other than maybe an Ony head in weeks.

A bug correction, and a stark departure from Vanilla.

Retail has Mythics, go there.

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Looks like the OP is looking for a different game. WOW’s success was based on the ability to solo, ease of pc requirements and the ability to get things done in a short amount of time. Mythic difficulty was implemented in order to satisfy the more hardcore crowd. Stop demanding that a game model built on CASUAL play become something that it is not.

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Seriously OP, just play classic EQ. It’s still going. Not even being trolly, you might enjoy it.

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some posters are comparing Vanilla WoW to other similar games at the time. but that is an apple to orange comparison.
The OP is comparing one version of WoW to another.
Blizz hasn’t evolved with the community’s ability to adapt to the challenges.
Yeah, Vanilla was a newb community, and it banded together to overcome the unknowns of the game. Theorycrafters, addon creators, boss fight videos.
We bonded.
Blizz has pretty much stayed with the same platform on which WoW is built and even more so, removed so many obstacles for the sake of expediency that players can now see and acquire contents in their sleep.
I understand that there are modes one can challenge themselves with, but that is just the point, a “mode” tailor-made for you. That is a solo mentality.
The point of a mmo is that we all agree to enter under the same premise.
You get out of it, what you put into it. No one is treated special, no one is given any golf handicap to level the field. You start off at level 1 broke and wearing nothing but a loincloth and you make your way into the world.
You make allies, you join guilds, you learn to trade, fight, and do what you feel like doing with the understanding that how far you progress is completely up to you.
Blizz isn’t going to give you anything other than one content for everyone to acquire and see.
Now if that version of WoW was so uninviting, how the heck did the subscriptions skyrocket from Vanilla to WotLK only to begin a downward spiral when Blizz began to make the game more expedient, easier, and make contents more accessible.
So I get the OP’s point, you can learn everything about TBC before it is even released. Re-tuning the fights will prolong the experience but I doubt it will recreate what the OP wants, in an expac everyone knows.
Now if Blizz were to go back to its original premise for future contents we might be able to recapture what we are looking for in classic.

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really, how did one solo Black Temple back in the day?
Mythic wasn’t add to placate the hardcore crowd, most of the legendary hardcore guilds left the game even with the addition of mythic, because they got tired of the ridiculous amount of modes.
There was a Sunwell long before mythic.
LFR was added to satisfy the demand of players who wanted a disney ride through contents.

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You can’t rewind history.

The game and, more importantly, the player base has moved on.

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TLDR for the rest of us

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“Increasing health/damage wouldn’t change anything”? Do you honestly believe this? It 100% will.

Boss damage today is such a joke that most “tanks” are dual-wielding through the latest raids. Make bosses hit harder so that tanks will need to wear a shield and more mitigation gear.
-> dps needs to watch their threat
-> boss fights will take longer, especially if you also increase boss health
-> people need to pay closer attention to mechanics and resist gear, to ensure that healers aren’t going OOM

Same goes for fixing world-buffs, which boost dps/health by an insane amount.

Retuning boss health and damage is a very straight-forward way to make raids feel more challenging. Are people going to down the boss eventually anyway? Yes. But at least it will be more challenging.

Retail has Mythics, go there.

Now you’re just being a troll. Retail has LFR, go there.

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You had fun back then because you were young and it was new. WoW was a unique experience like non other before it. It really was a casual MMORPG compared to what was available at the time.

The reason why you’re not having fun now is because you’re forcing yourself to play the game the way other people want you to play. If you want the content to be more difficult, find a guild that parses in the no world buffs category, or heck even just raid with a casual guild. There are plenty of guilds on large servers still progressing on previous phase content, and those people are probably like-minded.

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Yes. WotLK gave us our first real iteration of “hardmode” options for bosses. By far, the easiest to down were the bosses who had no additional mechanics other than more health and more damage. Even 3-Drake Sartharion, which was mostly just ridiculous increases in damage taken, proved rather trivial to overcome compared to any of the Ulduar Keepers on their respective hardmodes. I’d even place Mimiron and Yogg-Saron NORMAL modes as harder than Sarth3D.

Yes, because the bosses are tuned to have very large special attacks and anemic auto attacks such that Block actually has relevance and mechanics like Parry-Haste and Thrash can exist without globaling the Tank. Dramatically increasing the Tank damage on all fights such that Warriors are required to max out their EH/Avoidance gear to survive only ensures that fights are all just Patchwerk with a different flavor, assuming they can be beaten at all given the very limited duration of Healers if they’re having to go heavy throughput.

Further:

A max defense Bear has significantly more Threat than a max defense Warrior, so this wouldn’t be true.

This doesn’t really matter since almost no fights in Vanilla have soft-enrage or hard-enrage mechanics, and the average guild will see a boss mechanic at least once no matter what anyway.

Vanilla doesn’t provide many avoidable mechanics or anything that resembles personal responsibility. Patchwerk’s Hateful Strikes can’t be outskilled, Gluth’s stacking debuff is entirely RNG, Gothik’s adds do AoE whether you like them to or not, etc. The mechanics we can avoid are things like 4HM aura tics (which one-shot you if you mess up), Anub’rekhan’s Locust Swarm (which will kill you if you stand in it), KT’s Shadow Fissures (which one shot you), etc.

That just leaves Frost Resist for Sapphiron (which we’ll need anyway), and consumables for Loatheb (which we’ll use anyway).

You can’t just amp up Sapph’s aura tics and call it a day. Otherwise you either a) don’t do anything, b) make it so nasty that guilds spend weeks building FrR gear to down it, or c) you accidentally make it impossible without lots of favorable RNG resist tics. A is pointless, B is just annoying but not hard, and C is stupid. There simply aren’t enough levers to toggle in Vanilla because bosses lack mechanics.

They won’t be challenging in the slightest. Making Patchwerk last 2 more minutes means Healers need to pop additional potions and Tanks might need to min/max their EH a bit better to add as much Avoidance as they can, but that’s done BEFORE raid even begins and literally changes not a single thing anyone is doing during the fight.

You don’t understand what makes a fight hard or not, and like Blizzard did with so many early “hardmodes” and Heroics, you’ll only create a fair number of slightly sturdier loot pinata fights that didn’t really challenge anyone.

Your premise that Mythic kills are devalued by LFR existing holds zero water. No one felt that their Heroic LK kill was devalued by the existence of Normal LK, notably because the fights were so dramatically different from one another, not to mention the extreme differences in most of the fights leading up to LK in the first place.

LFR sees the least amount of a fight. Half of them are little more than jazzed up 5mans in terms of any understanding or responsibility, and LFR often barely touches upon the NORMAL mode requirements. Mythic mechanics often, if not always now, completely alter how a fight plays out.

Normal/Heroic Operator in Blackrock Foundry was fun, but boring, and the trains were just kind of silly.

Mythic Operator was a frantic (and amazing) mess that had little to do with damage/health and all to do with way more mechanics to deal with, loads of new timers, and on-the-spot perfect positioning.

No one is under the illusion that they “beat” a tier by only doing LFR. Only very shallow and poorly progressed people think others believe this nonsense.

If you want challenging PvE content, go to Retail, do Mythics and actually down them.

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Well put. It’s people playing Classic as if it’s BfA.

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I would settle for a game that was free of bots and hacks.

Classic is just starting to feel like d2 :cry:

Lol, its called retail. WoW classic has always been the easiest iteration of WoW. This is a nostalgia trip, not an improvement trip. If you want an improved classic experience, that’s different, but don’t expect anything to change on a re-release of the same game.

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This is false. We still nerdgasm in audio chat killing these bosses in mythic for the first time.

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The game is pretty hard for new players. The mechanics are just simple and easy to deal with. Play a raid with no WBs and no buffs beyond class buffs and its actually got some challenge since you can’t out DPS the mechanics.

This is what they did for naxx, they just gave low mechanic bosses a huge health pool, and the gave more complex bosses smaller health pools but less time between mechanics to do damage so you actually had to do the mechanics instead of zug zug chain heal to death.

Are you joking? Even in vanilla wow was always considered the easy and casual mmo, still is and always has been.

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Sounds like you need more arena in your life. Uses a little effort and cooperation at the least. If it’s easy then you’ll be 2k in no time!

you keep arguing in favor of “feels” stop