Not once was about whether or not orcs respect non-orc spirits.
Really, Treng. Keep up with your own arguments.
I showed evidence they respect non-orc spirits after you claimed they did not.
Keep up.
I never made any mention of blood. I mentioned customs. Stop blaming your arguments on me, Zerde.
And yet you keep doing exactly that…
It doesn’t matter what we were talking about, we see one for one how Grom reacts to the situation.
Hell, orcs wrestle their own ancestor spirits on alter Draenor.
There’s a huge graveyard of them, and I don’t mean Oshu’gun.
And if you think orcs honor ogre spirits, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
You spoke of Draenei spirits, which are, well, duh.
Meanwhile you actively ignore objective proof of Grom not caring.
You mentioned Maghar from TBC.
TBC Maghar never drank the demon blood.
and you talk about me making this easy.
You’re walking into this on your own almost as bad as you did with the tauren and trolls.
Here.
Even more recent proof that orcs don’t respect the nelves dead, even after seeing what they did to Archimondo.
That is not what I was saying. Both the races in cata didn’t get a capital.
Yes blizzard should rebuild Gilneas, they generally should add town as time goes for both factions. but complain about loosing Gilneas is not fair as it was never there outside of a starting zone, it would be like horde players complaining about the goblin island being destroyed.
That is easily the single worst formed argument ever. Come on, Treng. Do better than "well I’m just changing the discussion now.
I mentioned orc customs. Orc religious practices. We see modern orcs share those same religious practices. You provided no proof the Warsong clan holds different ones.
All we see is they chose lumber over beliefs. That is not a fault of the night elves.
Because you have.
You mean the point you had to concede earlier?
Ok.
Led by Sylvanas. As Saurfang himself pointed out, the entire Horde lost their way.
This is not the proof you think it is. Thank you for proving me right.
From and his crew saw a warning. They did not care. Following their leader trumps their own beliefs.
“Oh, well I’m going to pretend Grom respected those spirits now.”
I went and looked it up, and the only spirits orcs revere as a culture are their own, and the elementals.
No mention of nelves.
Other than that they literally have a graveyard where they wrestle their dead in Nagrand???
https://i.imgur.com/hnEeNjv.jpg
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Golmash_Hellscream_(quest)
Please link the post.
This’ll be good.
Sure it is.
Compounded with Grom.
Compounded with the wowpedia article you could just look up (and I’m betting that you have, and that’s why you haven’t mentioned it.)
Still not what anyone said.
What was that you said about strawmanning?
And yet, I said respect which is a different word with a different meaning.
Strawman 2.
AU draenor, which is canonically different, per the devs. And we don’t know that isn’t a thing for all clans.
Bad faith argument 1.
No. It isn’t.
Avoiding the point made is not a victory. It’s a defeat done to a child who wants to flip the board over.
At this point, you have been so shamed and humbled in this argument, unable to even defend your own points without utterly redefining them every third post, that I feel sated with your humiliation.
The fact you have been unable to dispute or refute in any way is the night elves left the orcs know the forest was inhabited. Unwittingly you have agreed, when you first acknowledged they thought they were ghosts. Then you tried saying “well orcs don’t respect those ghosts because they are not orcs”. That was debunked, so you went with “well Grom’s Horde (because you clearly forgot they were an actual clan until I reminded you, and somehow concluded Grom led a different Horde) has entirely different religious practices and doesn’trespect any spirit but orc spirits, because wrestling”.
Which only proves that the Warsong clan still knew they were spirits, just not ones they liked. Meaning they still knew this was sacred land, occupied by spirits which they know are sentient things worthy of worship and just did not care. They knew the land was occupied when they pressed on. They were fine with sacrilege if it got them lumber.
Exactly like the night elves assumed.
They were not maligned in the least. They were just lumber-hungry orcs who gave no crap as long as they got lumber.
You have fully debunked your own argument.
Anything after from you will just be petty, pedantic, childish arguing without merit or weight.
Good day, sir.
Then why are you avoiding it?
You asked me about orc culture respecting other people’s spirits.
Your argument is objectively, canonically incorrect.
The only spirits orcs revere are their own, and the elements.
Night Elves are neither.
To be absolutely clear, you’re dead wrong.
Hearing spookies in an alien world doesn’t mean they should immediately revere them and leave.
The Orcs didn’t know the nelves were there. We’ve got War 3 on that. We’ve got Chronicle on that. And your flimsy argument is “but the orcs respect nelf spirits.”
They don’t.
You saw that they don’t.
You lied anyway.
And this is a recurring thing with you.
https://i.imgur.com/ZVBx6Vx.jpg
Checkmate, physicists.
This is how you fail. You’re creating an argument I never made. Who said they should revere alien spirits? They have shown they can respect them (Auchindoun), but being able to identify possible spirits (which you said the orcs would believe the nelves to be) as such is all that is required to say “spirits live here”.
You are simply further disproving your own argument by reinforcing mine, and adding irrelevant, arbitrary conditions for the sake of it, then claiming that arbitrariness is proof of…
Except: you claimed I said that. I never actually did. You even have head-canon conversations.
You’re just making yourself more foolish.
I will take no further part in what amounts to your form of digital self-harm.
400 replies… so what did we learn? Could we summarize?
No.
They haven’t.
Because we’re discussing the Warsong Clan, not the TBC Maghar.
The TBC Maghar were never members of the Horde.
They still aren’t.
They were never in Ashenvale.
They never found a wisp in their forest.
You make arguments without actually knowing what you’re referencing or talking about and in good faith I assume that “oh yeah I probably just forgot.” but then I get that itch to go and check and what the heck do you know? I didn’t forget, you were just wrong.
We learned that orcs are afraid of ghosts, but more afraid of not having enough lumber to feed their families.
If you love nature, you can never know laughter.
Goblins are game mechanics.
If it lacks doors, you can burn and pillage it.
The Warsong clan never lived on Draenor.
And Treng’s grasp of lore is best described as… fluid.
But mostly we learned that no child should be left behind.
The Horde needs a break from being Villain-batted.
The Alliance needs a break from being Victim-batted.
BFA was a the biggest narrative disaster in WoW history, ripping away the value of almost everything it touched (Zandalar and Kul Tiras made it out fairly okay, Kul Tiras somewhat better than Zandalar).
We will never get over it, never recover from it.
A resolution to it that fixes all that was broken, will never be written, can never be written.
At my count, we are approaching 1000 posts (I have a few people on ignore, so it may already be there by other people’s counts). I don’t feel that even a quarter of these posts have contributed anything helpful; it only been us arguing about how much we hate each other for wanting/feeling different things.
Depends on peoples expectations.
There are certain plots that are unresolved or unexplained and so they need to be closed so we can move on.
I will just use Alliance here.
Great. How do we narratively make a case that this won’t happen again by Horde’s hands?
How will Horde characters (not players) will be interacting with other characters or players given the history?
Do we ignore it like it never happened? Do we continue or even make the hatred, mistrust and hostility between the NPCs even in a neutral setting?
Also don’t forget 1 laughter = 1 terrorism
Well, ‘we’ can’t; only the writers can. We can only suffer as they make decisions via throwing darts at a board.
Again, it depends on how much airplane glue has or has not been shipped to the story development room.
This would be my preference purely because it’s the lazy way out and I’m too tired of it and don’t trust the people in charge. Touching it is like touching ####, you just get it all over your fingers and smear it on everything else you touch.
This would be the intelligent way to do things, but it’s not easy and so we can likely expect it to never occur due to it requiring actual hard work to pull off properly.
My own fantasy xpac that I would create if I actually were in charge would try to deal with all this, with Horde and Allaince relationships at an all time low due to completely understandable events with warmongers on both sides making very convincing arguments that there can never be true peace until the other side is 100% wiped from the face of the planet and peaceniks on both sides failing miserably to reign them in aside from saying that resources are too dangerously low to keep fighting.
This is key.
The very first reply to a thread pleading for the Horde to not be made villains again was. . . drumroll
Another immediate derailment into Alliance and Horde comparing scars and traumas and everything that entails that has played out a million times before in 96% of the threads on this forum.
That’s easily why I’m just… Burned out on actual lore discussions. I’d rather just nitpick back and forth with some know-little about an extremely specific scene long retconned by lore than actually discuss the story.
Because both sides got freaking ruined. Period. Who got it worse? Dumb Cosmic Fluxxers who play both sides obvs because they got two crappy stories. But beyond that?
You got it worse. You. Whoever you are, if you have even an iota of investment in this crapsack of a story we’ve been fed, you got it worse. Horde, Alliance, doesn’t freaking matter. You got handed crap and were told it was gold.
And because of how personal that feels, it will always feel like you got worse than the next guy. Period.