I never for one moment contested this.
Just pointed out that night elves were flat out insane and decided to torment and kill people rather than say hello.
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Defending your home from invaders is not insane.
Trying to scare trespassers off is also not insane. See: guard dogs, alarm systems, motion sensing lights. That the night elves used methods they are more familiar with is also not insane, unless you think cultural differences are insanity.
Scare.
So really the ultimate issue, assuming you can have a basic grip on rationality, is that the night elves chose not to greet the destructive invaders who would not be scared off and brought weapons with them into what they learned, after the scare tactics, to be occupied land.
That is insane.
It is when you do not mark it as your home and use it as a trap to kill unwary travelers.
It’s basically PG-13 SAW.
This is rich, given you’ve spent forever trying to claim that everyone should know an empty forest isn’t empty.
They’ve got animal familiars.
They’ve got rogues.
They’ve got druids.
They’ve got spells.
You ever seen LA By Night? Probably not, but tldr:
Leader of the inquisition goes in alone to meet three vampires.
He tells them he knows what they are.
He tells them he wants to have a conversation.
He also tells them that killing him will achieve nothing but sending him to hell, and that they would be joining him immediately after because all of his men had the place surrounded.
But the Night Elves decided that “Hey, y’know, we’ve never seen these people before and they look really stupid, they think we’re ghosts. Let’s scare them before we kill them.”
And they’ve been crying about it backfiring ever since.
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Absolutely. But we both agree that is not what happened at all. So it is irrelevant.
That is a bold lie.
VtM is not set on Azeroth. This is also irrelevant.
This would have been the closest to an honest statement you made in this post, had you not immediately lied again in the last few words.
Your argument has descended to lies and irrelevant statements.
You have lost.
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No, we really don’t.
Treng: how did the orcs know to leave land they didn’t know was owned
Alynsa: tHeY sHoUlD kNoW
The point isn’t vampires or humans, the point is coherent strategy that the night elves entirely lacked in their first encounter with orcs.
Hilarious coming from “trolls and tauren don’t have doors.”
The night elves literally.
LITERALLY
Scare the orcs and laugh about it before they kill them.
That objectively happened.
Your lying won’t change that.
But I’m sure it’ll help you feel better after this discussion, so I hope you feel better soon!!
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Doubling down on bold lies will never make them stop being lies, Treng.
Exactly. The orcs learned the land was occupied. They stayed. They kept chopping.
Their own fault.
You start to get this, then forget.
Then answer. Now. In your own words.
How would the orcs have known the land was owned?
They come from a land of spirits.
They deal with spirits regularly.
Spirits are dead.
This is easily the weakest defense, given orcs’ spiritualism treats ancestor spirits and the grounds they inhabit as sacred. See: Oshu’gun.
Ya just burying yourself not, Treng. Do you even know orcs?
I’m sorry, did you think they thought they were haunted by orc spirits?
Who gives a crap about some alien spirits on another world?
When he sees a wisp, Grom doesn’t even think they’re real spirits.
You do know that ORC spirits resided with Oshu’gun right? This is basic information that proves you know literally nothing about the lore.
No. Where did I say this?
Orcs, clearly. Also see Horde Auchindoun quests. Orcs revere and respect ancestor spirits and sacred grounds. This is well established. If, as you argue, they viewed the haunted forest as possessed of spirits, they should have treated it like every single other such location.
You’re making this far too easy, Treng.
You know Oshu’Gun isn’t on Azeroth, right?
Well you implied that it was violating their orcish ancestral rites to not give a heck about spirits on Azeroth. If that wasn’t your implication, then you don’t have a point.
If it is your implication, it’s too flimsy to stand on.
Peons, surely.
You know, the funny dummies who are enslaved whenever Blizzard needs to show that the orcs are evil and some other race is good?
You’re conflating Thrall’s Horde at its zenith with Grom Hellscream, thick on demon blood, left to his own devices.
edit: you know what auchindoun has that Ashenvale didn’t?
WALLS.
You literally compared a vast seemingly empty forest with a structure made of stone and brick to house the spirits of the honored dead.
Correct. But you implied the alien spirits on Outland weren’t infact orc spirits.
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And you accuse me of poor reading comprehension.
No, I didn’t.
I said the wisps were the alien spirits.
When I find myself inventing fanciful scenarios and imaginary motives for all of 8.4 seconds of WC3 interactions, I like to consider what story the devs were trying to tell.
So, what are the Night Elves? More importantly, what should the player’s first impression of them be? Are they peaceful, nature loving copy-pastes of Wood Elves? Or are they a ferocious, territorial bunch of giant women (something not often seen at that point in time) riding giant saber-toothed felines? Probably that one, right? Given we want to present them that way, it wouldn’t really sell them as such if their introduction were that of compromise seeking diplomats to an invasive group.
They could have approached the Orcs peacefully, but why undercut their intended identity? Orcs could have backed off when they realized they were cutting down someone’s homeland, but that isn’t who the Warsong were. Doing so would have undercut their identity, especially Grom, who was a mad dog foil to Thrall. Basically, the moralizing and reinterpretation is irrelevant to what that set of missions sought to convey. Don’t overthink it. Just take it as it is.
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Oh, but that isn’t at all what you claimed I said, Treng. Why lie?
Not at all. The quest-givers in question are native to Outland.
And yet, Oshu’gun did not. Walls do not seem relevant at all to orcish views on sacred grounds.
You’ve tried a lot of dishonest argument tactics here, and they have not worked. You’ve failed to defend your argument, failed to debunk mine, failed to offer retorts that do not damage your own argument. To quote Saurfang:
You.
Just.
Keep.
Failing!!!
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That’s exactly my point though!
Everyone acts like nelves are perfectly innocent in this, like orcs are the only culprits in their decades long debacle. But they aren’t innocent.
ITT: Alynsa claims it’s against orc customs to not treat all spirits, of all races and creatures as the honored dead.
Hint: It isn’t.
Okay, you’re conflating orcs who had never imbibed demon blood with Grom Hellscream.
Orc spirits are honored, yeah.
Nelf spirits aren’t.
Hilarious, given the above.
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Show.
Evidence.
I showed mine. Your turn.
No. I was talking orc customs, as were you. Now when that failed, you tried changing the qualifiers.
You’re just failing harder.
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i’ve literally posted it no fewer than six times in this very thread.
Do I need to go show you Grom hunting down the spirits again?
And you didn’t show me ANY evidence that orcs honor all spirits. You threw the Draenei on the table as if we all weren’t aware that the orcs know the evil they did, and how indebted they are for the rest of time because of it.
No, you were talking about orcs who never drank demon blood.
The Maghar in outland never drank the demon blood. They never joined the Horde. They honored the Draenei because what was done to them was horrible.
Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true.
Elsewise the earth would be flat, and we’d be in a pickle.
Okay, then lead with that. Leave all the Ashenvale being a trap, tormenting orcs, not caring about the woodland, genocide stuff out of it.
Similarly, people should leave the “elves could see and smell the fel taint on them, and that’s why they attacked” nonsense out of it (again, Cenarius/Mannoroth came later).
Both rely on imagined narrative that overcomplicates something very straightforward.
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