Let’s throw in Gallywix’s Pleasure Palace, too.
Maybe hand that task to the Night Elves to destroy, maybe it’ll make them feel a little better.
Doubtful. No matter how much the game might showing them winning it, I have faith in their ability to spin it into a defeat.
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Neither TM nor Bilgewater should be on the table. I do however have a Goblin PC with a small villa in Bilgewater Port on Kezan that he would be willing to part with, for a price.
Well you try telling Zerde that. I was hoping to scare them away from the idea.
No I am saying Horde players got the sylvanas thing and alliance players got the andiun thing.
Horde players got the wod trailer and Alliance players got the legion trailer.
And if this trailer cinematic was the AU Draenei in Draenor along with Velen and Yrel instead of Garrosh, Grom and Guldan that would not count?
I don’t think so.
For me both count. If you don’t think so then we just have to agree to disagree.
If me saying in BFA Horde players got a rebellion quest line with 3 trailer grade cinematics is pretending then yeah let me pretend. And lets pretend that next expansion Alliance should get 3 cinematics of their own like Saurfang got or do you disagree?
No Arthas is a pretty balanced character when it comes to it. He would be a fan service for everyone. Illidan too probably.
But Garrosh and the Orc warlords? Come on… thats a Horde things. Finally you get a face for all those legendary names.
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And the Alliance got the Wrath trailer by that standard.
It’s literally a villain based trailer. We fight all of those orcs (other than one that has an off camera change of heart that’s never explained) it’s not horde. And if it is, Arthas in Wrath makes that an Alliance cinematic.
2 Horde, one Alliance w/ Saurfang.
If you want a story that makes the devs go “We need to pull out the stops to try and make the Alliance feel better from the absolute destruction of any potential for positive future development” go for it.
Convenient that.
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Can I just point out here that I am sad that my beach episode fan service joke got completely glossed over?
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Forsaken? Lordaeron?
Funny how Lordaeron becomes an Alliance exclusive thing when its convenient.
Doesn’t matter, its still complete Horde fan service, just because its a villain based trailer doesn’t disqualify it.
Sure and when we get our 3 cinematics Baine could participate in one of them.
Well since BFA was bad for everybody and we all got to be miserable… from your own mouth these cinematics were made to make you feel good then it is only fair that we also get some of these feel good cinematics.
We are not doing victim Olympics here of who has it the best or worst. Horde got some stuff and its only fair that Alliance is shown the same love from the devs in 10.0
Yes… Arthas the main character in both the human campaign and later undead campaign would be a popular character for both Human fans and Forsaken fans. What I find convenient is when it comes to Lordaeron and the Forsaken we are very selective when its Horde stuff or Alliance stuff.
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How?
How is turning the Orcs from a relatively normal race corrupted by demons into one which can just go out and do the same without the demonic influence fan service? I mean, feels more alliance fan servicey since it retcons things into the way the worst alliance fans always treat the horde.
I mean, that’s just another Tauren story thing that the Alliance has already stolen from them.
Do you really want the game to have to make it up to you for your own faction story treating you like you’re an utter monster as a person for having decided to play what was sold as a non-evil faction in a fictional game? Because that’s what they were making up for. At least the Alliance story didn’t treat you like villains in your own story.
Ok, now do Illidan, brother to the leader of an Alliance race, and major part of that race’s story is an everyone thing, but villain orcs from WC2 being villains that we fight is just a Horde thing.
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As I have explained several times before its fleshing out lore we have not seen that is almost exclusively intriguing to one faction.
For example if we were seeing a trailer about old grand alliance and the other kings that would be total Alliance fan service… maybe a little Forsaken too but mostly Alliance.
Because its relevant to them.
WoD’s cinematic was just that for Horde and Orc fans where they saw one of the most pivotal Orc moments in glorious 4k.
You had Guldan, Garrosh, Gromash and of course Mannaroth… It was really cool stuff for Orc fans.
So do you accept or no? I am just trying to reach a compromise at this point.
I think the game has to make up for this whole genocide victim (again) and further explain this renewal thing when they took Vengeance off the table on both the Horde faction and Sylvanas.
A Horde player by the name of Benedikt has started playing NE content and he makes some interesting observations about how much NEs been beaten over the head for years.
They desperately need something constructive.
Both factions got a terrible deal with BFA, Horde got cinematics and some questlines to help process that.
Now its Alliance’s turn. I don’t see why this is such a big ask.
Illidan? I mean… I guess but besides his crush for Tyrande this guy is a unit on his own. Even in Warcraft 3 his stay as a Night Elf champion was only couple missions after that he had his own hybrid faction. Even in Legion he didn’t exchange two words with Tyrande or Malfurion, his journey was a personal one with little relation to his race or family bonds.
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Is it?
And again, this all started because you were pretending that in Legion the Horde got an extra cinematic with Sylvanas becoming Warchief. That’s not the case, so you went back to WoD to try and salvage your claim.
I mean, if you accept the Alliance being iredeemably hit with villain bat in a way to make it nearly impossible to go back to being a heroic faction anytime in the near future with the Alliance story abusing you as a player for the things the writers decided to make your character take part in, fine.
I mean, or it could go like it does with genocide the alliance has committed on horde races and just pretend it didn’t happen. Or like other Alliance misdeeds they could write something into the story to make that bad thing have caused a greater good and then vindicate the horde for doing a bad thing. I figure we’re owed a few of those.
Generally it’s because those extras tend to get used as a way to pretend that the horde actually gained things in BFA and only the Alliance really got mistreated.
Then let it be their own thing. I’m tired of them. It would be a welcome change to have an expansion where the horde doesn’t have to deal with them for once.
I’m tired of having to help Tyrande while she spits insults at me and I have to take it a over and over again.
I’m tired of my favorite race being written as the Night Elves tag along. (and doesn’t help any that we’ve lost lore due to it hurting their fans feelings, and the way some of their fans seem to take Tauren story as some sort of threat to their own overly covered story)
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We do get treated like villains in our own story. The litmus test for whether or not an Alliance character is right or wrong is still dependent on how much they like the Horde. Even when we’re fighting off a war of aggression from the Horde we still pretty regularly get lectures about how really the Horde are victims too and really we need to choose healing over violence
Which is a real problem in a story about a war. Wars are intense. You can’t fight in battle unless you’re positive that you and your team are all on the same side, the same page, and have each others back no matter what.
You don’t get that as Alliance anymore. We used to in the RTS days and sometimes in early WoW, but where the Horde is concerned we virtually never get it. Alliance morale is at rock bottom because when push comes to shove our leadership sells out their own people’s interests for the sake of the Horde and half the cast of Alliance characters are 100% neutral when it comes to the Horde no matter what the Horde does.
It’s hard to fight the Horde when it seems that at any moment your allies/high command could suddenly have an ethics-induced panic attack and do this:
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I’ll disagree as to the Alliance getting quite that treatment. Look, the WoT quest still has me righteously POed at the writing team for making the horde questing feel like a guilt trip not from the horde characters but the game itself. But not gonna say you don’t feel that way. I just have strong feelings here.
And hey, as to the ethics thing, I’d love it if that side didn’t always have that, it would mean more realistic less polarized conflicts that aren’t between the factions of Stupid Good and Stupid Evil. But it seems like either writers, or a loud group of Alliance players have a problem with anything that might slightly besmirch the pure virtue of the Alliance.
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… I didn’t say that…
You said Alliance got the extra Andiun thing and I said you got the extra Sylvanas thing. So it balanced out. Then you said actually the Sylvanas thing was for the Varian Trailer thing, which honestly makes no sense since one is an ingame cinematic and the other is a trailer grade cinematic. Which I compared to WoD.
BFA was terrible for both factions. Lets not pretend who got to be the winner of the victim olympics but in BFA the Horde got several cinematics and its time the Alliance got their own.
You want Alliance to commit a real onscreen genocide against the Horde? Or do you want some NPC just say that it was? If that makes you happy I hope you get it.
We both got mistreated but in different ways but you got three cinematics extra to go along with it.
I have been literally saying that… but ok at least we reach one small common ground.
And trust me I don’t want Horde characters or players anywhere near Tyrande or other Alliance characters either. To me that totally invalidates the many, many grievences Alliance characters have and we pretend they don’t exist and everyone is a super best friend.
I too hope for your favorite race to get their own content.
Hey! Maybe if ever Hyjal gets revamped as the new NE capital city the Tauren druids can go away to their own thing.
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I believe I started snarking about how some alliance fans like to act like only the Horde gets extra content, since someone was talking about all the extra BFA stuff horde got, and part of that was mentioning that in Legion Alliance got an extra quest w/cinematic that bumped them ahead of the Horde in progression as it gave one of the resources. (also that it was nice as that was in a period of story quests that were just check boxes without story to go with them, so Alliance got a little taste of story that week) And keeping just with Legion, it just seems weird to act like the Sylvanas cutscene was an extra when it was treading the same sort of ground that the opening cinematic did, just on the other side of the opening quest and as an in game. So I’d call that part pretty even. And maybe the Anduin quest wouldn’t have been such a big deal if the story team didn’t forget the horde existed and had their own beef with the legion, and not just a muffin stealing critter.
And my point is that no matter how nice the cinematics, they don’t start to make up for the rest that was dumped on the horde, AND that you keep ignoring that 2 of the 4 full blown cinematics were just as much about Anduin as sad orc. Look, I’d trade you the cinematics in a blink if it meant they swapped the stories and hell, if TB was hit instead of Teldrassil. For me that’d be a win, yeah, it’s a great capital as it’s the most condensed and quick to get to everything you need. But I’d rather the game treat my character as a hero than the villain’s mook. But I know that’s just me, and that I might not feel that was better if it were actually reversed.
They already have since Vanilla. It wasn’t a huge one, but the dwarves did wipe out an entire tribal unit for the express purpose of stealing their land.
Yeah, but that’s not really something that’s ever been a major thing.
I don’t think it’s as much that there’s alliance bias, but instead that this writing team just does not know how to write horde stories for the horde. They know how to make them fight the Alliance, but they can’t do like slice of life stuff for many of the horde races.
Would be nice if they could do it, but I feel like aside from not knowing how to write for the Tauren, moreso than some of the other races that they might be scared to try to do much with them.
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Until BFA the cinematic and quest content has been about the same.
There was for sure some lack of quality for some Alliance stuff in Cata where Blizzard ran out of time and the infamous robot cat quest for MoP but overall the differences were not that bad. I am sure you can name a few things that equalize that.
That was and is still my point.
And as I have said when Alliance gets their own cinemaitcs Baine could show up and participate. I don’t think the cinematics would make up for everything in BFA… and hell Shadowlands too but it will help.
Well there is no time machine and even if we do use time dragons to undo it, we all still exeprienced the turd sandwhich and I doubt any of this will ever go away. Its canon and it will continue to impact the story and characters.
What is interesting about this situation is that I think NPCs are being far to lenient with the Horde character and player in their dialogue. For much of BFA I found it frustrating that not many even mentioned Teldrassil or the mass slaughter. It feels like the game/writers are minimizing it.
So what is the answer to my question? Do you want to acknowledge the Purge or Taurajo? Or add a new event that would make a victim out of the Horde?
I don’t think you want the first option because the result is even if we assume the Purge or Taurajo were extreme morally black actions that yielded many innocents dead the scale of Teldrassil completely dwarfs it. The Horde would seem to be crying over a stubbed toe while the Alliance have gotten their leg shot off.
They should hire some people from the Hearthstone team probably.
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I refuse to believe that your fallen Warchief feels even the slightest remorse for her crimes.
When will she answer for what she did to my people? To my son?
You have much to answer for as well.
Lor’themar: Well met, King Greymane.
Greymane says: Regent Lord.
Lor’themar: I hope the fate of Sylvanas Windrunner brings the Alliance some measure of peace.
Greymane says: Peace? You stand in the Shadowlands, Regent Lord. Ask the dead she sent here whether they feel peace.
Greymane says: As for me, that’s something I will never know. Not while the monster who killed my son still endures.
Lor’themar: I understand. My people are haunted by the deeds of monsters as well.
Greymane says: And what of you? Are you hoping that the ranger-general you served comes back from the Maw? Or would you prefer having your warchief again?
Lor’themar: I spent most of my life alongside the Windrunner family. Sylvanas was my hero… and my friend. But the banshee who nearly led the Horde to ruin was neither.
Greymane says: Then you shouldn’t have followed her commands. Good day, Regent Lord.
Lor’themar: Good day, King Greymane.
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That’s the problem with the dump on the story that was WoT. There’s no good way past that, I get why you feel that way about the NPCs, but conversely, doing that would be piling more punishment onto other players for the actions of the writers. I’m not particularly bothered if they’re gonna bad talk us to Alliance players, but even without them doing more, it still feels like the writers putting the boot in again when they harp on horde players. We didn’t choose it, they did, but we’re the ones punished in the game for what they decided to do.
I want some sort of standard of treatment.
I’m just sick of the Alliance as a game faction being spared any sense of guilt for what they’ve done in the story.
Dwarves wiped out the stonespire tribe to dig up their sacred land, and there’s not much mention of it again. They took a decently done grey story of Taurajo and made Baine apologize for it, since apparently not even that little mistake should possibly make the alliance feel bad. Genn gets all racist and mistaken after broken shore and attacks the horde for his mistake, but that was a good thing because later Sylvanas did a bad thing, then even later they wrote it into a much worse thing, so it was good from the beginning. Horde can’t even have a moment they’re allowed to be PO because they were all led into a trap because the SI:7 was being run by demons and led everyone into a trap.
I just want the story to let alliance misdeeds be misdeeds. Let the Horde feel legitimate anger over things that might not be what they seem like the Alliance does. Just bring down the faction conflict into realistic conflicts that world powers have and not just super cosmic evil vs super pure good.
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To you, perhaps. But I wouldn’t say it’s universal. Plenty of Alliance fans were stoked for Grom, Guldan and Co. They’re pretty iconic to Warcraft, not even WoW.
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I don’t think just because its a Horde thing it stops people from appreciating it or enjoying it.
I enjoyed the WoD cinematic as I am sure some people enjoyed the Legion cinematic even though it was Varian narrating.
I mean in Legion we got some Sylvanas scenes too where she saves the day… anyway pretty balanced overall in terms of content.
BFA though? Jesus I remember, NEs get mass killed and the first cinematic is about one of its chief architects and somehow he is the real victim in all this.
And then another one…
And another one…
And I am just waiting and hoping for something relevant in 10.0 but I very much doubt it will ever happen.
Well hopefully they manage it. Honestly the Horde has done so much crap that Alliance could fill an olympic swimming pool with blood and I would just think to myself “what goes around comes around” but at least the Horde would perhaps feel less like monsters if Alliance treat them how they claim they have been treated for all these years.
I think both sides should have the same justifications
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