GDKP - The Correct Way To Think About Them

[Duckling-anathema]

Is SR the only other loot option used on WMC alliance?

There is TMB, RR, LC, SR, MS>OS, MS>OS+1, DKP, EPGP, open roll, need before greed.

Also, if the lifers are finding no gear for extended periods under ‘bad luck’, are they not going to experience no gear for extended periods in GDKP… Unless they swipe? The idea is gold talks, and if you’re a lifer, you’re earning less gold than no-lifers, and you will lose items until they have them and you accumulate gold - unless you swipe.

So the idea that they benefit more under GDKP in acquiring items only stands up if they cheat. You either need to wait extended periods and accumulate pay out gold/cheap items, have an existing toon with lots of gold, or swipe.

[Ibex-skull-rock]

@Girth-anathema

I will say this for your benefit and to those reading who have suffered under Gamba-Loot-Distro. SR guilds hold great players hostage and most-often reward the worst players.

Translation: “I deserve loot; it’s MINE because of x-y-z. This other player is less deserving because of x-y-z. Instead, I will adopt a system where players will be encouraged to RMT to purchase BiS loot, so that at least I will get something.”

@Girth-anathema

disgruntled lifer guildies find themselves without gear for months for no better reason than “bad luck” it is enormously more difficult to operate a “community” as an SR guild than it is as a GDKP.

Bad luck is RNG. No matter what toon. If it doesn’t drop, it doesn’t drop. The difference is, now the bad player can just swipe for it when it does drop.

You replaced community for $, and the real question now is, if you are a GDKP host as you say you are, do you sell gold?

[Girth-anathema]

per point:

@Ibex-skull-rock

Translation: “I deserve loot; it’s MINE because of x-y-z. This other player is less deserving because of x-y-z. Instead, I will adopt a system where players will be encouraged to RMT to purchase BiS loot, so that at least I will get something.”

who deserves loot and why?

@Ibex-skull-rock

Bad luck is RNG. No matter what toon. If it doesn’t drop, it doesn’t drop.

you misunderstand me, I mean that BIS has dropped several times and has gone to underperformers instead of the lifer guildie that spends hours every week enabling the raids success through recruiting, community, bringing everything to the raid and helping others.

@Ibex-skull-rock

You replaced community for $, and the real question now is, if you are a GDKP host as you say you are, do you sell gold?

I can happily say that I have never and will never buy/sell gold . buying gold would undermine my entire progression and taint everything I have accomplished. Selling gold doesnt compute for me either because my warrior isnt even full bis. I still need GOA, Kiss, Gressil, THC, Thunderfury, and I have another warrior that I plan on gearing yet. the worst thing i might do is swap gold for WoW tokens for personal use but that is basically blizzard-sanctioned gold selling

[Girth-anathema]

@Duckling-anathema

The idea is gold talks, and if you’re a lifer, you’re earning less gold than no-lifers, and you will lose items until they have them and you accumulate gold - unless you swipe.

This falls under a “Sunk Cost fallacy” category. I have never bought gold myself and actively encourage people to avoid doing so themselves. the truth is that lifers are dedicated individuals who are not being rewarded. The ultimate question of SR vs GDKP in terms of loot is. “How much do I value my time?” if you run GDKP, the best loot in the game may be purchased for more than you can manage, even if you go all-in… but that person’s money comes to your pocket as spending power. the reality is that most players love getting paid for their efforts. I have spoken to quite a few people who lock themselves to just Tier 1 and 2 raids and they tell me that they find those raids to be the most fun and use all of that gold to fund boosting and gearing new characters so they can run those raids even more. One of the most beautiful parts of GDKP is that a guy can decide, after saving forever and ever, that no one else that can tell them NO when it comes to a specific item.

I have also attempted to cross from GDKP to SR as a dedicated pumper and found a cultural difference that made me uncomfortable. I was looked upon as something contemptable for coming to their raid as an outsider, even though they say that they need me. Suspicion and loot obsession drives the discussion, while the same people will proceed to make what would be rookie mistakes in any GDKP run of the same raid. My point is that any change of system after being committed to a particular model will be painful. I am sure that i could eventually get used to raids that take 33% longer, more toxic players on average, and eventually having to run dungeons or 20 man gdkps to pay for consumes, but I think I’ll stick to GDKP because it works best for me.

[Ibex-skull-rock]

@Girth-anathema

you misunderstand me, I mean that BIS has dropped several times and has gone to underperformers instead of the lifer guildie that spends hours every week enabling the raids success through recruiting, community, bringing everything to the raid and helping others.

To this we agree on. A “raider” is a whole-player concept. Do you reward the top DPS player who shows up every time to raid, but has a bad attitude? Or do you reward the semi-blue raider who helps recruit, brings everyone together and is a joy to play with?

Do you only help people because you expect a reward at the end for your work?

Where the disagreement occurs is the “loot system”.

@Girth-anathema

I will say this for your benefit and to those reading who have suffered under Gamba-Loot-Distro. SR guilds hold great players hostage and most-often reward the worst players.

What is a “great player”? How do you determine a great player? Logs, attitude, etc?

You are trading your administration work for $. Now, instead of the lifer guilidie getting screwed, its anyone who doesn’t have the coin. In addition, you(general terms) incentivize people to take the quick and easy option of RMT because “the almighty dollar rules all”, and to be frank Blizzard just sucks at banning RMT/bots.

Edit: In the end, I guess it doesn’t really matter much. The community by and large has decided to GDKP. I would wager to say that over 90% of all raiding in Classic is done under GDKP rules.

[Chislev-defias-pillager]

@Girth-anathema

most-often reward the worst players.

Most often…wait
Most often?
More often than not?

Cmon man.

[Wazy-proudmoore]

I guess I’m a weird minority. I’m happy to just enjoy the game and gear up the best I can in 5 man dungeons. BRD / Strat/ Scholo gear is good enough for me.

If I ever get the chance to join a guild that will take me to raids that’s cool. I’m definitely not paying gold for BoP gear though, and would certainly never spend real money for gold for gear. Too oldschool for that.

[Girth-anathema]

@Ibex-skull-rock

Do you only help people because you expect a reward at the end for your work?

I am a Christian that believes in being charitable, but it’s against my beliefs to state to the extent that I do. simply speaking, I do what I can where i can afford my time and resources to help others

@Ibex-skull-rock

You are trading your administration work for $

Someone’s gotta do it and most people are loathe to. I just happen to have enough of the necessary traits to make it work most of the time. I might as well get paid for the trouble of maintaining relationships with hundreds of strangers from tons of different backgrounds and attempting to make as many them happy as possible. funny enough, raid leading is a largely undocumented skill set that overlaps heavily with real-world general management techniques.

@Ibex-skull-rock

In addition, you(general terms) incentivize people to take the quick and easy option of RMT because “the almighty dollar rules all”

Here is my contention. You begin in your mind at 0 gold and zero gear and assume that there is no where to start and you will always be at zero. this is false and bad math. maybe you do not want it to be true that you can start fresh with nothing via GDKP, or maybe you have never done it and don’t have an appropriate frame of reference. thankfully, I have started at 0 and can recount part of my experiences.

I grinded dungeons when i first wanted to start raiding until i had about 2k gold. joined some MC and BWLs and picked up some tier plus my cut for playing. I got a talking to about how to improve my play and took it to heart. went back to dungeon grinding til the next week. I had more money next time around and more gear. I did my best and no one yelled at me to do better. my marks on the logs looked better too. Weapons were hard to get and expensive. I decided that I would save as much as I could and get quel serrar from onyxia to shortcut my way to a 50dps weapon. i picked up more hit chance from other gear too, to be a better raider in the future. the game turned around for me when i finally saved up 10k and managed to buy sand polished hammer for 8k, a STEAL for the time as it normally went for 15-20k and most of the server was very competitively rostering for aq40. I had that hammer forever until I eventually got into naxx some months later. The entire time I progressed I made a bunch of friends and a couple of really great ones. I owe my progression to our cooperation, and I like to think that I was of assistance to them as well. So even in GDKP you can have close personal ties, without the GEAR DRAMA

My point is this. with GDKP, your Gold is your DKP and it’s global, untied to any guild or organization. spend it as you please and wherever you want. you have all the room in the world to associate with others and not be trapped in abusive relationships that I have personally witnessed with guilds. If you waste all of your gold all the time, that is YOUR PROBLEM. you must plan ahead and be thoughtful, this is true in life as a general fact. I cannot help but to wonder whether the slander against a system that liberates people from the necessity of guilds masks their own desire to entrap others into providing themselves with gear that they would not have the opportunity to get themselves.

Here is my final note about Gold buyers, and maybe you’re unaware of this as well. when they get full bis by swiping, you know what they do? they log off and often forever lol. If they loved the game, then they would play it.

@Ibex-skull-rock

What is a “great player”? How do you determine a great player? Logs, attitude, etc?

a great player is person who is good at the game. it doesn’t make them a good person. I’ve talked to plenty of great people who are just not great players, and vice-versa. I would love to have your answer my earlier question:

@Girth-anathema

who deserves loot and why?

Thanks again for the dialog

[Girth-anathema]

the girth man has witnessed horrors in the SR dimension beyond your comprehension

[Gibblestien-wyrmrest-accord]

@Ibex-skull-rock

You replaced community for $, and the real question now is, if you are a GDKP host as you say you are, do you sell gold?

You know he doesn’t sell DIRECTLY. They bring their gold sellers to the raid. As you mentioned in one of your previous posts, it’s a business.

[Gibblestien-wyrmrest-accord]

You aren’t alone. Dungeon running is really fun and rewarding on its own. Especially so when the whole team is equally geared in dungeon/quest gear making for a fun challenge.

[Duckling-anathema]

How is that a sunk cost fallacy?

No lifers play more and have more opportunity to earn gold, thus higher item acquiring power in GDKP. Lifers play less and have less opportunity to earn gold, thus lower item acquiring power in GDKP. Unless they swipe.

Please explain how that is a sunk cost fallacy.

[ßurning-crusader-strike]

Let’s break down the benefits of keeping GDKP’s banned in SoD Here are several compelling reasons why this ban is beneficial for the game and its community:

Preservation of Traditional Guild Structures:

• Community Focus: By keeping GDKP runs banned it helps to maintain the traditional guild and social structures that are central to the spirit of SoD. This encourages players to participate in guild activities and build stronger in-game communities.
• Fair Play: It reduces the “arms race” effect where players feel pressured to buy gold to compete for the best items.

Reduction of Pay-to-Win Dynamics:

• Balanced Gameplay: By keeping GDKP runs removed, the game becomes less about who can spend the most money and more about skill and teamwork.
• Less Gold Buying: It discourages the practice of buying gold, which can lead to a healthier in-game economy and reduce the risk of account suspensions for players.

Enhanced Raid Experience:

• Traditional Loot Distribution: Players return to more traditional methods of loot distribution, which can make raids feel more rewarding and fair.
• Increased Challenge: Without the ability to buy gear, players must rely on their skills and strategies to progress, potentially making the game more challenging and engaging.

Fairness and Equality:

• GDKP runs often favors players with more in-game gold, creating an imbalance where wealthier players could easily outbid others for the best gear. By banning GDKP, Blizzard aims to level the playing field, ensuring that gear acquisition is based more on skill and participation rather than financial resources.

Encouraging Teamwork and Community:

• Traditional raid systems encourage players to work together and support each other to achieve common goals. since GDKP’s have been 86’d, Blizzard is promoting a more collaborative and community-focused environment, which can enhance the overall social experience of the game.

Preventing Exploitation:

• GDKP runs are often exploited by players who used real money to buy in-game gold, violating the game’s terms of service and creating an unfair advantage. The ban helps to curb such exploitative practices and maintain the integrity of the game.

Balancing the Economy:

• The influx of gold from GDKP runs inflate the in-game economy, making it harder for average players to afford essential items. By banning GDKP, Blizzard can help stabilize the economy and make it more accessible to all players.

[Xdrain-bigglesworth]

@ßurning-crusader-strike

Let’s break down the benefits of keeping GDKP’s banned in SoD Here are several compelling reasons why this ban is beneficial for the game and its community:

I support anything that keeps SoD players far away.

They managed to ban gdkps, destroy pvp queues, and do it all with some of the worst attitudes I’ve seen in any community. Their population went from 500,000 to 75,000 - anything they support is likely to be horrible.

@Girth-anathema

You begin in your mind at 0

@Girth-anathema

and assume that there is no where to start and you will always be at zero. this is false and bad math.

Girth speaks the truth

[Ibex-skull-rock]

@Girth-anathema

but it’s against my beliefs to state to the extent that I do. simply speaking, I do what I can where i can afford my time and resources to help others

Convenient.

@Girth-anathema

a great player is person who is good at the game. it doesn’t make them a good person. I’ve talked to plenty of great people who are just not great players, and vice-versa. I would love to have your answer my earlier question:

Your initial point was “BiS loot gets given to underperformers”; then quantified that with “… the person who makes raids happen, recruits etc. Then said that great players are “good at the game”.

What determines a good player? Do you look at logs, attitude, whole raider concept?
According to your posts, logs and overall damage isn’t even a requirement. It’s just “makes things happen”.

You lead with “SR sucks and traps good players” to “good players make raids” to “good players are good at the game”. Further irony is adopting a “loot” system where you just let your wallet speak, as if that distinguishes good players from poor ones where loot is rightfully in the correct hands. What discussion is this?

You facilitate a raid that benefits yourself first and foremost with a fat host cut. You market items with an arbitrary price tag and encourage participants to bid each other up because it lines your pockets. Your sole goal as a host is to maximize profit for your own gain. There’s no community in that.

[Xdrain-bigglesworth]

@Ibex-skull-rock

Further irony is adopting a “loot” system where you just let your wallet speak, as if that distinguishes good players from poor ones where loot is rightfully in the correct hands. What discussion is this?

You realize big pumpers, tanks, and hosts are getting like 1.3 - 2x payout every raid from bonuses right? Host is getting even more. The people necessary to make the raid happen are well rewarded.

Pick and nag all you want, but good players all realize that they are well rewarded and respected in GDKPs.

Yes we look at logs, and nobody will invite you if your attitude is trash, and also if you goblin and do bad stuff to top meters that’s not a good player. It’s not that complicated - if you can’t see who the pumpers are - you probably have a ton of learning left to do to become a okay raider in vanilla.

[Girth-anathema]

@Xdrain-bigglesworth

if you can’t see who the pumpers are - you probably have a ton of learning left to do to become a okay raider in vanilla.

TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[Ibex-skull-rock]

And plenty of good players play in SR’s.

@Xdrain-bigglesworth

You realize big pumpers, tanks, and hosts are getting like 1.3 - 2x payout every raid from bonuses right? Host is getting even more. The people necessary to make the raid happen are well rewarded.

The issue isn’t good players; the issue is the health of the game. Does GDKP = longevity in the game?

I say a system predicated on extracting as much RMT as possible from swipers is not a healthy system.

If your cut was substantially smaller and not able to afford consumes, would you still participate?

[Xdrain-bigglesworth]

@Ibex-skull-rock

I say a system predicated on extracting as much RMT as possible from swipers is not a healthy system.

SR players swipe way more on average. ALL gold buyers and sellers should be perma banned.

People play GDKP because the alternative is just not raid and quit the game, or only pvp.

We don’t want to cheat and raiding isn’t worth farming a few hours a week for. Especially since its not even an important part of the game.

Vanilla is about pvp.

@Ibex-skull-rock

Does GDKP = longevity in the game?

Yes. People don’t raid bis toons unless:

• GDKP
• Speedrun

Most others that say they do, aren’t likely bis.

[Ibex-skull-rock]

@Xdrain-bigglesworth

SR players swipe way more on average. ALL gold buyers and sellers should be perma banned.

And systems that encourage RMT should exist?