GDKP - The Correct Way To Think About Them

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Yeshuah-lava-lash

Easier is an interesting way to put it.

The gameplay skill involved doesn’t change (it’s the same raid), so why is it easier?

It would be obvious to you to the point of not needing an explanation if you weren’t so narrow in scope.

Generally speaking an individual has to be a part of or find a guild that is doing raid content and all that entails. They have to be social and productive enough to earn a roster spot and maintain it all while agreeing to play a specific class on a set schedule for an unspecified amount of time, typically months if not longer.

Being dedicated to the long term mission statement of a raid guild, its rules and customs by being a real team player and personally accountable to dozens of other individuals is not even in the same universe as GDKP.

The poorly named GKDP is what we used to call “buying a carry”. Some of the specifics are a tad different and some names have been changed but its the same thing in principle. Buying a carry is fundamentally easier than earning it on every single level. Its a glorified pug that, much like most other forms of raid associations you can think of, uses peoples justifiable self concern against them by offering them the opiate we refer to as “loot systems”. GDKP is just more inherently stupid than the rest of them.

@Yeshuah-lava-lash

Goes back to the organization of 40 people who know what they’re doing at the same time for hours, on a weekly consistency.

I mean, if you want to make my case for me, Im not gonna say no.

@Yeshuah-lava-lash

That’s not “playing the game”, that’s organizing 40 peoples’ lives outside the game in a way that allows them to play the game.

Personal opinions are just that - personal. If that’s how it feels to you, you’re entitled to feel that way but personal anecdotes have no bearing in any real discussion. Other people might see it as playing an old game with friends for fun. Who knows? There’s a huge variety in tastes and outlooks.

@Yeshuah-lava-lash

And I’m all for THAT being easier, and it doesn’t have anything to do with “impatience or lack of scruples”.

Its a basic understanding that someone who is taking a fairly substantial shortcut to a particular goal is doing it because they don’t have the patience to not take the shortcut and actually play the game.

The lack of scruples comes in because if it can be abused this player bases MO is to run roughshod over it like demons do. It is certainly no secret that RMT has had a big hand in how the “speed game” is played and while I agree that RMT is a separate issue unto itself, there is simply no denying the two are inextricably linked.

Its extremely reasonable to suggest if not state directly that if anyone were willing to take the big shortcut (RMT - totally cheating with real in game consequences) there’s probably few to no shortcuts (mage boosting/raid carries) that would be a hindrance to their conscience and as we can see, all of those things do exist.

All that being said, its not a big deal on the horde side of my cluster so I really don’t care personally. Those things happen but the overall community still puts the emphasis on guilds, were it belongs. I dont worry about bot gold in Era so much because its been out for so long now its possible for many players (except me) to be loaded to the gills in honestly earned gold and its gonna change hands one way or another.

[Skunkyboy-whitemane]

Bro you’re talking about carries for things like ZG, Onyxia, MC, and AQ20. You can get carried in a SR just as easily, it doesn’t mean you earned you gear more than if you bought it in a GDKP. Anyone who talks about being carried in any raid other than naxx is talking complete BS, and I see maybe one Naxx GDKP run a week being organized, and they gear check too.

[Koki-defias-pillager]

@Vanillataur-garrosh

As I said, I have no more, nor less claim on any one oitem than the next guy, The item belongs to me if, and only if 1) it drops, and 2) I win the roll fair and square.

I’ve not claimed this. My opinion on loot is that it’s not “mine” until it’s in my bag. I disagree on the open roll, it can be very unfair when alts/pugs get preference over core raiders.
I changed to a SK guild later on and was happy with that loot type.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

You can get carried in a SR just as easily, it doesn’t mean you earned you gear more than if you bought it in a GDKP.

SR pugs are not looking to carry anyone for a price so what’s your point exactly? Why aren’t SR pugs dominating the raid scene then? If its that easy?

Yeah sure, fine - you, me and everyone else has got that one exception to the rule story about that one random guy in that one random pug that one time who was dead for most of the boss fights but lucked themselves into 3 pieces - that’s why we form guilds with different rules - so we dont have to give the dead guy his due.

Its a pug. Sometimes when youre recruiting random people for your random event because you have no other choice its a known property that you may have to deal with some lukewarm bodies and the more proactive approach of ‘something is better than nothing’ is a worthy enough consideration if its the difference between your raid going off or not. Pugs can set standards and make up their own rules and do so.

GDKP, in theory if not practice, says yeah he might have been dead the whole time but its the gold that counts. I understand that it doesn’t always work out that way, but thats what the G represents - gold. Its kind of the point.

@Koki-defias-pillager

I disagree on the open roll, it can be very unfair when alts/pugs get preference over core raiders.

That’s a subjective judgement call - that’s unfair by definition. Its a player created ideal, not a universal truth.

Open roll is the most fair loot system because it has makes no judgements at all. Its up to chance and the people involved all have the same odds. Its up to the people using it in the moment to decide what’s fair for everyone. MS>OS/Need Before Greed is the best complimentary ruleset if you want to take it down from being a total free for all.

[Skunkyboy-whitemane]

SR runs are popular. I’d say 70% of runs are GDKP, 30% are SR. Why aren’t they dominating? Because GDKP is preferred by most players. Many people playing this game want one piece of gear and are willing to pay tens of thousands of gold for it. It’s guaranteed rewards for raiding. The runs are usually organized by better players, and they’re usually much smoother in general. SRs actually have a much higher chance of bad players joining and bringing down the raid. Rarely is there any sort of gear checking for SRs, and usually undergeared players join them because they’re fresh 60s and can’t afford a GDKP run. I’d say most of the time SRs are hard carrying bad players more than GDKPs are. Either that or they fall apart because it’s nothing but bad players.

Your elitist attitude about classic era raiding and “Earning loot” strikes me as stupid, frankly.

Also Open Roll loot system is objectively terrible in classic era. Luck is not a fair system, and it’s why jobs typically don’t pay people random amounts of money. Nor do hospitals treat patients according to randomness as opposed to urgency. SR is probably the most truly fair loot system for pugging, but doing so risks isolating good players who don’t want to roll on the one item they need with 15 other players. They’d rather just be the biggest bidder, or at the very least make gold for their failure to win the items they want. SRs are objectively terrible for any sort of guild setting though. Loot Council, GDKP, and DKP are the only reasonable systems for guilds, none is perfect, and each has its own flaws, but there is an actual system for keeping track of time invested and rewarding appropriately as opposed to randomly getting loot if you /roll the highest.

[Ayber-lone-wolf]

@Shadowcry-lone-wolf

I hate it. I hope they keep it banned forever and apply the ban to ERA servers.

Emotional responses are always the worst

Your lack of intelligence shines when your mad too bro.

Get over it, GDKP wins best in slot loot system, times have changed.

[Skylights-area-52]

Where are you goofies getting this information lol, did you even play SoD? It was 10 man raids and there was practically nothing but GDKP

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

Because GDKP is preferred by most players.

Dedicated raid guilds dominate the space. GDKPs are in the pug category - its just the one wrinkle that separates them from other pugs. All pugs combined don’t come close to raid guilds in terms of participation. Its likely there is a fair bit of crossover however.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

I’d say most of the time SRs are hard carrying bad players more than GDKPs are. Either that or they fall apart because it’s nothing but bad players.

Well, hey, thanks for agreeing with me seeing as I already pointed out SRs are not in the business of recruiting bidders to fill out the last dozen slots of an otherwise stacked, overgeared roster of experienced raiders that could probably easily 30 man everything not named Naxx. Their roster requirements differ as a result. In other words, you can’t compare them on the grounds on which you wish to draw the parallel.

One of GDKPs selling points is that the content is not an obstacle but a means to an end. Maybe they both have equal amounts of low number types per raid but its more noticeable in an environment where random strangers are expected to at least pull their weight and/or not stupidly wipe the raid.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

Your elitist attitude about classic era raiding and “Earning loot” strikes me as stupid, frankly.

From where you’re coming from I imagine it would be. You got the stupid part right, lets see if you hold yourself accountable now.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

Also Open Roll loot system is objectively terrible in classic era.

Its not, but whatever. I don’t feel like going into it. Ill settle and say people are entitled to their opinions no matter how lame they are and I just accept that for what it is.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

Luck is not a fair system, and it’s why jobs typically don’t pay people random amounts of money.

There’s a weird irony in denouncing luck as a system when the system is all loot tables and drop percentages RNG built entirely on top of another system of RNG - every swing of your weapon is a dice roll based on all the relevant numbers. No one gets mad when luck gives them a nice BoE epic for killing a world mob - it comes with the territory, you feel what Im sayin?

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

SRs are objectively terrible for any sort of guild setting though. Loot Council, GDKP, and DKP are the only reasonable systems for guilds, none is perfect, and each has its own flaws, but there is an actual system for keeping track of time invested and rewarding appropriately as opposed to randomly getting loot if you /roll the highest.

I guess Ill just repeat myself and point out this is someone’s idea of fairness. It is not the definition of fairness. All loot systems are purposefully prejudiced and biased by design - that’s the whole point. They tell you that’s fair and you agree with it, that’s all that’s actually transpiring.

The original folks who created the first DKP model openly stated the whole purpose of their system was to get the good gear into the hands of the people that they and their system deemed more desirable. That’s a bias in favor of one group over another which is inherently unfair in principle, regardless of the reasons why. You just believe differently. What you believe runs counter to the basic facts of the matter - open roll is completely without bias and the odds are the same for everyone which is the literal definition of fairness.

Open roll is perfect because you can do anything you want with it. That level of freedom doesn’t come without risk. You can impose or remove limitations as you see fit. You can put a loot system on it or not do that. You can also screw someone with it or get screwed over - a pug player should understand the risks when doing content with people you don’t know. Any transgressions are on the ninja though, not open roll. Open roll didn’t make that guy be greedy and roll need.

The same standard rules we apply to dungeons applies to all group content in actuality. We just decide to alter the distribution method beyond a certain content level because we can - for any reason - and open roll doesn’t care one way or another. And I think that’s 100% totally fine because people are free to associate under any rulesets they deem works for them. Its all voluntary. Its not really necessary but that’s not a restriction nor should it be.

[Bullakae-crusader-strike]

The biggest thing for me is the quality of players in GDKP pugs compared to any systems a typical pug is going to use.

Players stay for the entire time, to get full payout. They play hard, to get full payout. They come raid ready, to get full payout. They respect your time, because they respect the payout.

[Alsharptusk-fairbanks]

@Killorx-grobbulus

If you join a GDKP you are part of the problem

No.​​​​​​​

[Skunkyboy-whitemane]

There’s a weird irony in denouncing luck as a system when the system is all loot tables and drop percentages RNG built entirely on top of another system of RNG - every swing of your weapon is a dice roll based on all the relevant numbers. No one gets mad when luck gives them a nice BoE epic for killing a world mob - it comes with the territory, you feel what Im sayin?

No I don’t actually. You’re trying to argue it’s better to leave things up to chance. There are random aspects to damage, using your example. You improve the chance that random things don’t happen with by gearing for things like weapon skill, crit, and hit. Why do we do this? Because adding order to randomness leads to better outcomes. People don’t complain when something positive happens to them due to luck. No one is arguing that. People do complain when something negative happens to them due to luck, you’re arguing that’s not allowed, which is stupid, especially when it’s preventable. It’s like saying “Don’t complain that our bus driver is drunk and driving dangerously, it’s just unlucky that it happened to us. Just the other day you found $20 on the ground, that was lucky, so stop complaining!”

And I think that’s 100% totally fine because people are free to associate under any rulesets they deem works for them. Its all voluntary. Its not really necessary but that’s not a restriction nor should it be.

Then leave GDKP alone and don’t participate it if you don’t like it. You come in here with your judgemental attitude about it then say stuff like this. It’s complete cognitive dissonance.

[Elanthos-arugal]

The ban in SoD has been positive. However, they work best for new or seasonal servers. I’m not sure they’d work, or be welcome, on long-established servers where there is already a large pool of gold in the economy (i.e. retail servers).

Speaking only for myself, as long as a server has a good population of SR>MS>OS raiding going on, it doesn’t bother me that there are also GDKPs. My experience is that this has varied, depending on server. Some are absolutely dominated by GDKPs, others have thriving SR>MS>OS communities.

To be honest, I’m not sure why there’s so much difference from server to server.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

You’re trying to argue it’s better to leave things up to chance.

That’s not what Im saying. Im saying an open roll system that treats everyone equally is inherently more fair than a purposefully biased system rigged to give drops to select people based on a set of arbitrary values - because it is.

Whether that’s better or not is up to individual interpretation.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

You improve the chance that random things don’t happen with by gearing for things like weapon skill, crit, and hit. Why do we do this?

Because in a theme park game that lines up bosses in a set order for you so you can have the experience of character progression is the entire point of the game.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

People do complain when something negative happens to them due to luck, you’re arguing that’s not allowed

Where did I say that? You can have a negative experience with a loot council or dkp system or any other distribution method because humans are running the show. There are a metric ton of examples of people in guilds getting screwed out of gear their system said they rightly earned. You can multiply that by 100 if you want to include pug raids.

The difference being, in a totally fair system like open roll, your hostility has no basis as you lost fair and square and you agreed to the terms. No one is being forced to play under those conditions either so I have no pity. Bad stuff happens but its not open roll or the loot council thats screwing you. Ive been burned loads of times because not everyone playing is super cool and well meaning. I would put the blame on the dreaded “greedy bad monster” taking advantage of the rules to hog all the loot when they should possess enough self awareness to let others in on the goods. Yknow, where the blame belongs. Open roll is simply being framed and railroaded because there are people who could care less about the unwritten rules and common decency.

@Skunkyboy-whitemane

Then leave GDKP alone and don’t participate it if you don’t like it

I already leave GDKP alone by not participating. Discussing it is another matter and Im free to do that on a public discussion forum. Im not trying to stop it or dissuade people from doing it. That doesn’t make me ignorant of the potential pitfalls of such an environment or prevent me from speaking about them.

The OP started a thread promoting GDKPs and to correct peoples thinking about them because GDKPs are not something that can stand on its own merit. If they could it would be obvious to everyone to the point of not having to be promoted as something good and wholesome in the face of substantial contradictory evidence. Im simply pointing it out.

Let me put it this way, you’re free to love and participate in GDKPs and benefit from them. That doesn’t mean it comes with a get out of jail free card where you can sell buying a raid carry as something we can’t live without or worse yet, beneficial and holy. It is what it is. GDKP does not equate to good and that’s not my opinion. You can kid yourself if you want to but I dont have to play along.

[Skunkyboy-whitemane]

@Corpseknife-mankrik

Let me put it this way, you’re free to love and participate in GDKPs and benefit from them. That doesn’t mean it comes with a get out of jail free card where you can sell buying a raid carry as something we can’t live without or worse yet, beneficial and holy.

where you can sell buying a raid carry as something we can’t live

So are you against banning GDKP? It kind of seems like you’re saying the game is better off without GDKP, but you can’t admit that you’re advocating for the banning of GDKP.

[Yeshuah-lava-lash]

@Bullakae-crusader-strike

The biggest thing for me is the quality of players in GDKP pugs compared to any systems a typical pug is going to use.

Players stay for the entire time, to get full payout. They play hard, to get full payout. They come raid ready, to get full payout. They respect your time, because they respect the payout.

A most excellent point, which should help to bring this topic back on the rails.

This isn’t intended to be an argument about if you enjoy/don’t enjoy, like/dislike, GDKP.

GDKP is the most functional solution to the “40 person raid” problem.

If you don’t like it because it incentivizes bots / gold selling, or if you don’t like or for any other reason, your job is very simple:

Brainstorm a new solution

And THAT is something that not a single naysayer joining this thread has yet even attempted to do. They just advocate for already existing, less functional solutions.

Come on boys, let’s see those hamsters runnin’ !

[Golkra-crusader-strike]

GDKPs are bad for the game. They do not solve problems; they create them. They undermine the social ties of guilds, distort the purpose of raiding, fuel inflation, and fuel botting/gold buying.

[Bullakae-crusader-strike]

They create more problems then they solve. The things you listed exist without GDKPs already. Adding back GDKPs creates more raids. That solves many issues players face atm.

[Alsharptusk-fairbanks]

@Golkra-crusader-strike

They undermine the social ties of guilds

I assume you’re talking about the fact that you don’t build up priority with a specific group.

If you feel that every guild member of a guild needs to be locked into their guild’s raids then sure. But why wouldn’t you want more options? Maybe you raid just Naxx with your guild and AQ40 with another guild. Maybe you can’t make the raid on a regularly scheduled day for a particular week. GDKP let’s you raid with another guild that week so you don’t miss your lockout.

The “problem” here isn’t a problem with the loot system. It’s a problem with an individual. GDKP doesn’t eliminate other loot systems. If you want a player priority based loot system like DKP you can always join a guild that does that.

@Golkra-crusader-strike

distort the purpose of raiding

What? How? I participate in raids with different loot systems. I’m always raiding for the same reasons. This sounds like absolute nonsense.

@Golkra-crusader-strike

fuel inflation

GDKPs cannot possibly create inflation. They merely move gold around from player to player and cannot create it. It is the bots farming that create gold.

@Golkra-crusader-strike

and fuel botting/gold buying.

It is cheating, low integrity players that create the demand for gold buying. Unfortunately the only way to deal with those players is by either cutting off the source of their cheats or by punishing the bad players. Attempting to ban a loot system will have no effect on players with a compromised sense of integrity and will only serve to punish those who play by the rules.

[Psychachi-mankrik]

They create demand for gold to increase your bids and win more gear. Increase the demand for gold you’ll increase the amount of bots farming it to sell.

Did you pass economics?

[Alsharptusk-fairbanks]

@Psychachi-mankrik

Did you pass economics?

I think a preschooler is probably capable of understanding the simple relationship between bots and gold. I’m saying that the cause of bots goes deeper than that. If you uproot GDKP the cheaters will just find somewhere else to plant themselves leaving those who follow the rules to suffer. If you look closely enough at SoD this is probably what you’ll find.