getting 2h frost back is the real issue
8 Likes
Even though I agree Frost needs to be fixed, so many of us wanted 2h back again since we all felt powerful and like actual Death Knights with a 2 hander instead of DW. Also, there’s those among us on the forums who hate pet classes, including Unholy, so wanting 2h Frost back as the petless DPS was their argument, and I’m okay with that. But I think one of the better arguments for feeling powerful with a 2h was cause they felt like they were “slow like a glacier, but hit like a truck”, instead of stabbing away at their targets. Don’t know if you’ll agree with that one, but I think it was one of the better arguments for how 2h Frost felt.
Anyway, I think it might be better if you try to see all of their arguments for why they want 2h Frost back so much to understand why they want it and how they feel though. Hope that helps a bit here with trying to find a mutual understanding.
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You do make some vey solid points here.
I totally agree with the pet class aspect of it. I personally don’t have an issue with it, but I do enjoy the “slow like a glacier, hit like a truck” idea. I am fine either way if they fix frost. If they add two handers to it, then that is even better imo.
Though come SL if they do make some great changes and 2h frost is back, I think a ton of DKs will jump on that bandwagon, myself included.
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I think all specs should have dw and 2handers. But i agree… though I personally love breath.
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Give us BACK our weapons, then we’ll talk about doing Blizzard’s job of “fixing the spec” for them.
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No, fix the spec first. 2h is irrelevant.
1 Like
The spec/class need to be fixed before we need the weapons back.
Better talents and a better 100th row
do something with breath like combine it with sindys fury to summon a dragon
Obliteration needs a rework
The list goes on
They should do both. Frost needs to be DW and 2H compatible. Period. The prior lore and fantasy of DKs is too strong to ignore. No reasonable minded person can disagree with that.
Frost has never been perfect, not when it was DW and 2H compatible, not for the last TWO FULL expansions when its been DW only. Just accept it - the weapon choice isn’t the problem, its the overall spec philosophy itself. Just re-structure the spec so that weapon choice (DW versus 2H) doesn’t matter to how the spec puts out damage, and try to rebuild the spec and balance from there.
This whole situation is ridiculous and caused by Blizzard, themselves. I would understand it if their prior attempts at balancing Frost notably improved following the release of Legion, but the spec has gotten WORSE. Frost used to atleast be decent to good at certain things prior to Legion. Since Legion it had become less and less effective and less and less popular. At this point, almost no one plays the spec and it is average to bad in nearly every roll (PvE and PvP).
If we have to wait for Frost to be “Fixed,” whatever one’s personal definition of that is, we’ll never get 2H back. DW lovers have had TWO FULL expansions now of DW only. I think its time to accept that the DW versus 2H isn’t the balancing problem, its the overall build/philosophy of the spec. So now, since Bliz is attempting to re-orient the direction of many specs, it the perfect time to tear Frost down to the bones and start over. Bliz should rebuild from the mindset that the spec needs to work for both DW and 2H. The spec needs to center on the vast majority damage coming from strikes (I.E. Obliterate and Frost Strike). The spec needs the overall fantasy feel of an icy-harbringer of death with the spec balanced/focused on Obliterate hitting like a truck again.
5 Likes
It doesnt “need” to be anything, people “want” it to be that. They could make the spec just be frost strike spam but people dont want that. Its also never going to be “perfect” since that is subjective.
Most of what you are even talking about could be solved through the transmog system since it boils down to a look. Any other argument just doesnt hold up.
And the spec did improve following the release of Legion. Granted it wasnt top spot, it was still in a good spot. Just like now its still in a good spot dps wise.
Playstyle right now is the big factor. Like others have said, 2h is a quick fix if you remove the restrictions (with lower dps) or transmog (same dps).
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THANK YOU! I couldn’t have put it all better myself! And the heavily anti-2h nimrods really need to understand that the DW vs 2h arguments and gutting 2h solved ABSOLUTELY FRICKIN’ NOTHING! Instead, it just made Frost even WORSE than before Legion! Nerf after nerf, Frost just keeps going down the gutter! And if we don’t undo the weapon restriction, as a start to fixing the spec, then Frost might as well be removed from the game sadly enough. Which I think might make some guys who hate 2h Frost so much happy, as long as 2h Frost doesn’t come back to spoil their DW fun…
God I hate these guys so much, and it’s no surprise at this point why I despise dual-wielding so much, ever since Legion… This dual-wielding craze really needs to be culled so badly… No offense to the sane guys that like dual-wielding, but I really feel the craze has gone way too far…
EDIt: Forgot to say this, but I think at this point, without 2h Frost, Frost DKs are the perfect embodiment of “fun detected” now.
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It NEEDS to have a focus, a core skill(s) of the spec. The spec can be built out from there to add diversity. For Arms its Slam/MS, for Ret its CS/TV, for DK it should be FS/Obl.
I agree, which is why I don’t understand why you argue that the spec should be “Fixed” before thinking of adding 2h frost back. A “fixed” spec is also highly subjective.
Most of what I want is fixed by skills scaling off attack power, not weapon damage/speed. Which has already been implemented into the game.
I don’t know how you can argue that with a straight face. Frost used to be a powerhouse spec back prior to legion. Ironically, the spec was strongest with the talent trees when Bliz allowed the most player choice and flexibility. Ever since Bliz started forcing players to play a specific way, the spec has consistently declined. Currently, the spec is average at DPS and offers no utility and is hardly played anymore as compared to unholy. Its undeniably in a terrible state. If you can’t see that then you are not looking at the situation in an unbiased manner.
No, again, I am saying Bliz should just tear the spec down and rebuild it from the ground-up. I am not arguing for a quick fix… Just rebuild it with the mindset that skills have to work equally well regardless of the chosen weapon-build.
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How did losing a weapon make it worse exactly when DW performed better in the first place? Wouldnt that mean its the spec that is the culprit and not the weapon choices?
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I agree that there should be a focus in the spec, but what you listed has absolutely nothing to do with the weapon chosen.
You play the character 90% of the time yes? Meaning if you dont have a good spec then people wont play it. Fixed is subjective, but thats why people need to work it out right to get to a conclusion everyone would be happy with? Instead of wasting time talking about a weapon that would do absolutely nothing to benefit the spec. Its just aesthetic at this point.
That is why I advocate for a fixed spec.
Frost was strong, Preach got #1 in cata with DW Frost in logs, at the time at least. There has always been the best cookie cutter build that they balanced around. Spec design and trying to fix issues is why the spec declined. Why was KM based on auto crits? Probably because it was proccing twice at times and you would lose one of the procs since they didnt stack. When you make it harder to proc, or in this case based it on auto crits, then that issue wont happen as much. Its bad spec design and it has absolutely nothing to do with weapon choice.
I dont get what you are saying “No” to with the last quote so im just skipping it.
Let me say this again, get the spec balanced in a way so that weapon choice DOESN’T MATTER in terms of the metrics. Have the weapon skills dmg based on attack power, not weapon speed/dmg, and only hit one time regardless of if you are DW or 2Hing.
At that point, the only thing which would create difference is white dmg, which Bliz can use rune forges as a tuning fork for and would be fairly negligible.
No, I used to, prior to Legion. Since then I play it once in a while in spurts, basically for as long as I can bear to overlook/ignore the DW aspect.
Which is why they should balance the spec in a way so that weapon choice DOESN’T MATTER (See Above).
4 Likes
You have to fix the differences between the weapons for that to happen. They are mechanically different in how they work within the spec. Im not even talking about how the damage is even calculated which is based on attack power anyways. Its more work for something that transmog could fix in the first place.
I wasnt asking if you play 1 character 90% of the time, I was saying when you log on to any character you play it 90% of the time. When you level you are playing the character and the specs you have. Dungeons, you are doing something with the character and the specs that you have, raiding, warfronts, world quests, islands, everything you do you are playing the spec unless you are doing something like crafting. Pick a class, it doesnt matter.
No, I used to play all the time, since Legion I can’t get into the game anymore given the fact that the only class/spec I liked was taken away from me (2H Frost DK). Prior to Legion, I had consistently provided Bliz with subscription fees since release (I was even in the intial Beta), but I was so irritated they they forced Frost to DW in Legion that I cant get into it anymore and I dont like any other classes all that much.
People remember - I really only have Ret and Wars as 2h DPS options… unlike the 5 million DW DPS options out there…
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To be fair, this is specific to Sv hunters going from ranged to melee. Demon lock going from meta to 100% zoo. They arent overhauling specs. They already had stated they were looking at specs, they gave Sub rogue as an example.
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What are you saying no to? Its like its just a habit at this point because the name says “Kelliste”.
Its clear that you dont understand what im saying. When you log on to a warrior, you are playing whatever spec you want to 90% of the time when you are doing stuff unless you are sitting around doing nothing you are playing that spec. Pick a class and spec. When you go into a warfront, unless you afk, you are playing that spec. When you go into a dungeon you are playing that spec, when you go into pvp you are playing that spec, when you go into raids you are playing that spec. That is why I say the spec is more important. Its what you do the most while in game, playing the characters. For crying out loud its not that hard to understand.
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I support 2H frost because I find it to be more fun, not because it would necessarily fix the class.
Having said that…
Breath of Sindrogosa is a boring talent. The numbers are good if paired with cooldowns correctly, but even then, BoS isn’t the root cause of the spec’s problems. I wish it was a strait CD that jsut did a frontal aoe for 10 seconds or so, regardless of runepower available. That gets closer to addressing the core problem with frost: runes and runic power.
Ignoring the numbers (frost actually does pretty well in raids, not sure about M+ or pvp…because I don’t care), frost is a pretty boring spec right now, and too often it has gaps in the rotation because of runes and runic power. Removing the runic power part of BoS would help, but frost really needs a free obliterate or something here and there to help out with resource generation.
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Yeah, we have way too many DW DPS out there like you say, so it won’t hurt at all if we either cut one from the list, or we just add another 2h DPS option to help balance the numbers a bit more. And like you, I quit WoW ever since Legion. But for me, it’s not just cause of removing 2h Frost, it’s also what they did to Frostmourne to force Frost to be DW. Because of that, I’ll be truly happy if we both get 2h Frost and the REAL Frostmourne as a big fat apology for Legion.
5 Likes