Frost buffs

Classes Mage
102

Complaining about frost is akin to complaining about melee because the raid teir favors ranged. People forced to go ranged because no one wants melee. Same thing with frost vs fire. Something is more competitive and will always be favored over the other, in this case its fire > frost.

I never said what people are experiencing isn’t happening - infact, what people are experiencing is going to continue because frost will still be behind fire. And people will always gravitate towards the performing spec referring to the less competitive ones as unviable trash.

For some reason me saying “frost was viable pre-nerf but not competitive” is being interpreted as “frost is competitive and perfectly fine with no problems”.
People progressing in Mythic CN as frost is literal proof of viability. Only 1000-2000 parses vs 36k is proof of it not being competitive. There’s no argument there, only definitions.

What people have been doing is the literal definition of a strawman - you included.

103

It’s all about semantics, what does viable mean to you or me? To me it means not being consistently declined for content based upon spec, it means that in a group of players it can still help to kill a boss instead of being a liability. In a group of awful players, frost is a liability and hence not viable in my eyes. It’s not a strawman. What is a strawman is you insisting your definition of viable and non-competitive are the correct ones. Saying that something is viable based upon the best frost mage players doing some mythics is a red herring. Viability needs to be applied to the masses, not the best of the best.

1 Like
104

This isn’t about semantics at all, it’s community perception.

  • Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.
    –No qualifier of comparison w/ others. Not dependant on relative performance.
  • Competitive: as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.
    – Has a qualifier / comparison w/ others. Dependent on relative performance w/ others.

For “declined based on spec”, over 50% of the DPS specs in the game fit into that category over M+/PvP/Raiding content because it isn’t what’s meta. This is community perception, not viability - especially when people have proven that those classes can be taken to content at that level.

For being a liability, this I can understand - but then what’s being asserted is that frost couldn’t complete the content. The fact that world 300 guilds had frost mages in their progression runs pre-nerf is proof that they were not a liability. So then you’d have to argue that the people at the world 300 level have no clue what they’re doing and are doing it wrong - GL w/ that.

Was/is frost as desirable as fire? No. That’s why in mythic there was 1/40th the number before the buff. That’s why there is 1/30th the number now after the buff. That’s why in heroic there’s 6x the number of fire than frost.

This will never change unless frost is clearly superior to fire. People will still feel forced into fire because of that.

If viability is only ever applied to the masses, then whatever is spec is performing best will ever be viable. This is a flawed definition because we’re not choosing what can complete content, but what can complete content the best - which is what’s competitive. Viability doesnt have a requirement to be relative, which is what’s being implied here.

105

Once again those are your definitions, not mine. Try and justify it all you like, reality doesn’t care. And the fact that some frost mages are carried through content because they have good teams doesn’t make it viable for the masses. https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dear-mages-of-m/238957

106

That’s nice.
Those definitions are per Oxford Languages.

I’ll take theirs over yours

I find it funny to think that you think people who regularly complete cutting edge would choose to carry people during progression. But I guess as someone without a cutting edge achievement, you are qualified to make that assessment.

107

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You insist that frost mage is working successfully as a dps spec/ feasible when they are totally underrepresented in mythic raiding groups, M+ groups & pvp groups. I don’t agree, the fact that they are so underrepresented attests to how they aren’t successful or feasible. The very fact that it gets rejected should be a big sign that it’s obviously not feasible with regards to pug content.

If the gap between frost and fire wasn’t so big the community mightn’t be so picky but what does blizzard care about that. And just because frost mages have mythic kills doesn’t necessarily mean they are in the progressive group. I remember looking at the top frost mages and most of them weren’t in the progress groups or were switching to fire for progression. I might not have a cutting edge but I do have a degree if that helps any if you want to be elitest. Once again you will no doubt have the last word, your zealous defense of frost mage shows no bounds. I’m tired and I’m moving on.

It really doesn’t matter what you say, my frost mage will continue to be declined for m+ when I whisper I’m frost and I will continue to get cut from my guilds progression because my dps is low in heroic progression regardless of how hard I try. Yes my team could be better but it isn’t, that’s just how my team is, they try their best but they aren’t the best players, they are mediocre.

Edit: You’ve done two mythic dungeons this expansion, which is the only pve content you have done and you went fire both times. If frost is so viable you wouldn’t have felt the need to go fire. Case rested.

3 Likes
108

Except they community still would be. Shaman had this issue back in BFA. Their damage wasn’t bad, but for w/e reason community got hung up on thinking they were so they stayed under represented.

Arm’s and fury are basically on par, yet arm’s has 3x the representation.
Feral and Balance are basically on par, yet balance is 8x more popular.

Community is still picky even when damage is close because one has a very slight advantage over the other.

Except I checked and it was those guilds first mythic kills, it was progression.

Yes they did, because fire does better and is more competitive. Same reason as to why balance is more popular than feral despite basically the same damage output. It outperforms because ranged is typically better. That doesnt make feral bad, nor is it a reason to buff feral.

So do i. Whats you’re point?
You said that frost mages in mythic were getting carried, I said that makes no sense, because you don’t intentionally carry people when you’re progressing. I’m pointing out experience with CE because trying to assert something like that doesn’t make sense if you’ve actually played at that level.

I’m not saying they won’t. I’m not pretending what I say here has any influence on anyone outside of the people I interact with here. It will not ultimately alter how the community behaves.

I’m only here to provide anyone who’s reading the forums with some level of comfort that they can play frost, and if they do it well they can do okay. Instead of perpetuating the irrational belief that only the top performing specs should ever be played.

Yes, because I don’t have the same free time I did last expansion. Fortunately, you can look in the specific places if you actually want a gauge on what level someone has played at. This only matters if someone tries to assert something like (paraphrasing) “Frost mages in progression groups in Mythic are getting carried” when they havent played aggressively at a mythic level.

In heroic? Sure people might, but in Mythic? No.

To save you some time, I raided at a US 200 level in BFA before classic came out. If you care enough about it to not take me at my word, go to my profile, go to achievements, go to feats of strength. You’ll find cutting edge up to the late stages of Eternal Palace which was when the guild fell apart. If you’re interested in logs -> Crustyudder - Illidan.

I’ve got nothing to hide and why I don’t make my forum profile private.

109

This is one of the biggest problems with society today. He posts a definition from the Oxford dictionary and you “will have to agree to disagree”. Facts and definitions argued with opinions and feelings.

Frost is underrepresented in content currently because fire is better. Frost has been feasible, according to the definition and not your personal feelings about the word, since the start of the expansion. For the content that requires optimization, such as the world first race, frost did not have a place. This leads to a trickle down effect in the community which perceives that mages need to play fire. If there was a 0.1% dps difference between fire and frost they’d still take the stronger class for progression like WF and CE. That does not make it necessary for the rest of the community.

You say your frost mage is declined for M+. I’ve had one person ask me my spec and I’ve pugged around 50 M+ dungeons at this point. I’ve never had someone ask me my spec pugging raid content. Currently I pull 5-6k overall dps in most 10+ dungeons, topping the charts a lot of the time. Frost is fine for M+ content, your IO score will hinder you from finding groups way more then your spec.

You say you are getting cut from heroic progression “regardless of how hard I try.” How hard you are trying is no way to judge performance. Performance can easily be quantified in WoW by using tools like logging. If you are playing the spec correctly, at a high level, you shouldn’t have had this problem before the buffs but especially after the buffs. If you are parsing below 50% its less to do with the spec and more to do with how you are playing as playing any spec poorly is going to have more impact on your numbers then the spec itself.

110

Just ignore the troll.
He’s the very definition of a Troll, when he can’t win a discussion, he will just pick any word that is able to be discussed and use it as leverage and when proven wrong he will ignore and pick another topic or word.

1 Like
111

I’ll back your side if you can quantify the DPS difference between Frost and Fire at low (people capable of doing +5 or lower keys), medium (+10 or lower keys) and high levels (+11 or higher keys) of play to show that it’s substantially lower for each group. Correcting for bias due to under-representation in those categories is also necessary.

112

I haven’t pushed any high keys on this character yet, but I’m not having any issues with frost. It doesn’t pump like my balance druid, but it isn’t hot garbage by any means. I wouldn’t complain if we got some more love, but we won’t wither away without it. I typically out damage fire mages over the course of a dungeon.

Fire performs great if the tank does nice large pulls and keeps everything together, but for small/medium pulls or an unpredictable tank fire isn’t as amazing as everyone hypes it to me. I’ve yet to have a fire mage join my group and blow my socks off with numbers.

Bottom line is - stop caring about the meta unless you’re doing 20+ keys or mythic raiding. It really just doesn’t matter if you know how to play.

3 Likes
113

What happened to him? Did he quit? That guy was the worst overly dedicated fan of Blizzard I think I had seen. Any thread that was criticizing blizz he would show up in defending Blizzard.

2 Likes
114

There is a difference between viable and people who refuse to play a spec they don’t like but are in the .01% skill wise. What he doesn’t get is just because people are playing it does not mean it’s performing well.

This is a poor argument. People said Feral Druid was going to be the worst spec in the game in Beta and Feral was being rejected from everything. They ended up being pretty decent. If you narrow down Frost to a higher Percentile and ilvl frost and fire are not so terribly far appart. What you have right now is the Fire logs are people who have better ilvl gear. Frost Mages were not being taken as much and they are starting to catch up in ilvl. As they do the gap is closing.

I have been considering going frost just because I have not found myself enjoying Fire and I liked playing Frost back in WoD, I was pretty good at it. What’s been holding me back is how bad the perception is. I was trying to the Revendreth Elite quest yesterday as Fire and I got declined about 15 times in a row I think just because my ilvl is 180 ish on mobs I can solo on my own if I have to. I don’t know if I want to try and do that as Frost, guilds are looking for mages, but I think only one spec of mages.