Forsaken & Nelf Ashen Verdict?

The Ashen Verdict is one of the shorter lived but more interesting factions in game. You’ve the Argent Dawn and Knights of the Ebon Blade teaming up to storm the gates of Icecrown Citadel.

These two organizations are depicted as diametrically opposed foes who are practically antithetical to eachother from their weaponry to their tactics to their firmest held beliefs. But they are made brothers in arms to defeat the only thing they disdain more than each other- the Lich King.

It’s actually a shame that for such a delicious set up they’re basically just different colored dudes in armor playing helpful NPC roles in the raid. In their respective storylines there’s some great butting head moments leading up to ICC at least.

It was a real cool dynamic I thought could be done so much better today with the benefit of new graphics and technology. You could see ballista rounds burning with Holy Light soaring through the air alongside EB meat wagon offal. Just really drive home how bad Arthas has screwed up to create a conglomerate force like this.

But we kinda do have an opportunity for something similar. I know basically everyone wants a piece - but I think the Forsaken and Nelves are the most victimized by the Banshee Queen. They’re the ones tempest tossed by her mess. They’re the ones who are going to be most enthusiastic when the bill comes due.

They also have the most different looking armies of the faction powers. The Battle of Darkshore was baffling from a lore and logistic perspective. But from a rule of cool angle - I got it. It was a treat to see such vastly different power sets clashing. Watching a giant tree monster fight a giant Frankenstein’s monster is just pretty interesting.

So I think from a purely visual perspective that’d be fascinating. But also from a narrative one - it’s really weird and unprecedented that the Night Elves and Forsaken are intertwined now but they are and I say- screw it let’s run with this idea.

If we are abandoning the faction war and having the Horde and Alliance work together let’s odd couple it up. I don’t know what Windy’s minions will look like but I imagine a Master Apothecary and Arch Druid throwing their stuff at them at the same time is just a damage type cocktail nothing in even the afterlife will have a resistance to.

Overall I feel like this might correct some woes BFA wrought. You know how much fun I’d have had if it was the Forsaken got to fight in Arathi? Ah man that could be great. Belmont’s Saturday morning cartoon villain routine might even make sense if he was up against Turalyon. And maybe he even couldve got to say ‘What are humans but miserable piles of secrets!’. Just to fulfill his reference name in some capacity.

And as for the Nelves - well was it as weird for me as it was for you? Tyrande throws Orc heads in the moon pool. It’s Orcish demolishers that burn down Teldrassil. The whole thing with Ashenvale was framed as an Orcish and Nelf conflict. Which was always thematically cool as if the cinematic scales are to be believed an Orc doing anything but breaking a human in half seems unlikely. They’re the race that could match the savage Horde in close combat. Maybe you’re mad at Slyvanas but she /gquit as did Nathanos. And it seems like we’ll be working with Calia to get ya’ll a nifty red eyed skin or at least some NPCs of the sort. So - where’s the beef?

I really like when WoW does it odd couple pairings. That was basically the entire concept of the Armies of Legionfall and that seemed well received by everyone. Why not do a new version of the Ashen Verdict with the Forsaken and Nelves trying to get vengance on Windrunner?

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See Revendreth. Like, all of Revendreth.

Because I have Forsaken fatigue after fighting them for the last two expansions, and I’m fairly sure most Forsaken fans have Night Elf fatigue at this point, too.

1st off I will forever be salty that the Forsaken are not regarded as this settings rough equivalent to Vampire Lords. Stop making Vampires Blizz we’ve giant bat monsters with a coffin saddle and candelabra on the back.

2ndly, not really. The Nelf and Forsaken stuff was like two zones total in Legion and BFA. That you were never obliged to quest in once. Especially now Darkshore doesn’t even have a heroic version. I’m just there to get the epic looking Leather and Mail set since only my Priest and DK were combat ready for season 2 pvp.

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Heroic Darkshore Warfront is coming in 8.3.

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But even then - it’s one instanced content and like, what, Stormheim and Val’Sharah. You were in no way made to play these portions.

And maybe it’s because I’ve only been replaying since Legion but the only thing I got tired of was green fire. Had enough green fire because that was most of Argus. Probably going to be real tired of purple tentacles after 8.3 but I main Priest so, just going to have to swallow that.

I generally love seeing the race’s stuff on full display as long as it’s done well. If anything I should begrudge the concept of more troll stuff as it’s been mostly just troll stuff for me the whole game. But I’m 200% here for more troll stuff. Because it’s all real cool. Most of WoW’s stuff is that’s why I play the game.

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Here’s two Forsaken fans at least:

Hey I remember that thread! I made it because i feel that a major reason people don’t take night elven complaints as seriously as they should is partially because of elf burnout, and how Night Elven themes and history are often just tacked onto other races now instead of letting them have their own history. With how they seem to be always somewhat relevant in the expansions making people less sympathetic to the fact they don’t get good storytelling.

And then no one paid attention to the actual post and instead just argued about how nelves getting attention doesn’t matter or how they don’t get THAT MUCH attention, ignoring the point of my post entirely.

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I mean I think I could dig up info from certain Nelfposters that’d disagree with any Slyvanas solution that isn’t Tyrande murdering her in spectacular fashion.

I’m not even asking for much I don’t want the whole expansion to be this. But if Horde and Alliance forces are a presence - and they always are - I think it’d be neat to see it be predominantly Nelf and Forsaken themed armies looking for and seizing the Banshee Queen’s base.

Like Sira and Delaryn leading the Forsaken at the Darkshore Warfont:

Don’t let the full cheeks and rosy glow trick you. Cailias is a Forsaken through and through.

I could dig up more Night Elf posters who don’t ever want to team up with the Horde ever again (because they disagreed with me every time I suggested the Horde helping the Night Elves get Ashenvale back from Sylvanas loyalists).

And even more Horde posters that don’t want to team up with the Night Elves again.

And like giving the Zandalari Balance Druids an Elune Connection.

There shouldn’t be anyone dumb enough to team up with the Forsaken to fight the Banshee Queen.

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To be fair, that sounds more Dark Troll related than Night Elf related:

    "The markings on this robe resemble both the sign of Elune and several venerated Loa spirits."

Elun’alor in Zin-Azshari is also a suspiciously Troll style name.

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I actually do kinda like that, it shows how the kaldorei religion evolved, but i imagine some nelf fans do not

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Should that be a problem? It had to come from somewhere and they were trolls once.

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I like the idea a lot!

As for “Nelf Burnout”, totally get it. Unfortunately, we’re in kind of a rough position. The kaldorei have been shoved into a toilet of kerosene, crapped on, set on fire, and flushed a few times for good measure. (The Forsaken have as well, but, sans Sylvanas, “Forsaken Burnout” isn’t mentioned as much.) There were ample opportunities to resolve some of the plot lines for the Kaldorei during BfA, but, unfortunately, that was not done. So… because it wasn’t done, we’re going to need some more elf. It’s a lose-lose, because night elf fans would have rather their plots be wrapped up in BfA, and other players don’t want more night elf.

Anyways… That’s off-topic. I like the idea a lot. That is… if I was done right, which feels like a pretty “big if” right now lol Mainly… it’s so out there, it’d force a lot of cool character development. Let’s say it’s Tyrande and Voss leading it (I’m picking on Voss, but whatever, good for example.) Tyrande can’t just come out and say, “I didn’t hate the Forsaken! Just Sylvanas!” It’d feel weird. Plus, it might give Voss some chances to show her leadership skills.

Ultimately, I like their continuing to be begrudging allies, only tolerating each other for necessity. Still, it’d be good to see some “softening” to the character to each other. Not “besties 5ever”, but going from, “i hate you” to “I don’t hate you, but I also don’t like you.”

Maybe like… I don’t know? Sylvanas has four val’kyr, and they all have to be defeated simultaneously. So… after some questing, Tyrande, Malfurion, Voss, and the PC all team up and kill one each. Then they’re like, “well… okay, maybe this will work.” Or, maybe Tyrande realizes that “Hey, the Black Moon makes me powerful, but it also makes me super mad”, so she has to learn to control it better. Or, maybe she meets Elsie Benton, and she’s like, “Okay, maybe not all Forsaken are bad.” Plus, you could have the kaldorei dark rangers coming up like, “We’re sorry.” Maybe even Tyrande helps some of them find Elune again.

Actually, none of those are mutually exclusive! Let’s go with D) all of the above. Sorry for the Tyrande focus, I don’t know what Voss would need to have to want to work with the Kaldorei. Then again, maybe her already offering help to the kaldorei dark rangers is a good hook for her.

Then, throw in some “Vol’jin’s Spear” and “Greymane Pack” factions. Or hell, throw 'em all in the same pot. Anyways, that’s a tasty revenge soup that everyone can like, except Sylvanas fans, but y’know.

PLUS! I mean… One thing that might be awesome is like… Kaldorei Druids working with Forsaken Apothecaries to help find a cure for the Blight. Then, the pay off is that same team working to cure Lordaeron and reverse the damage of Darkshore. I’m sure Forsaken fans wouldn’t find that too hot, but it’s just an idea. Point is, combining such drastic opposites can result in a lot of cool potential.

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Should? No, it shouldn’t be a problem. Whatever Elune’s origins are it makes sense that they started within the troll pantheon. First simply because the Night Elves started life as a troll tribe and she appears to have been a constant part of their society. Also it ties in nicely with a chain of quests in Desolace that have you making blood sacrifices to Elune in an ancient primal ritual.

It will be a problem however, since there are players who have their heart’s set on learning that Elune is special in a very specific and very boring way that makes her very powerful and devoid of any connection to the Night Elves primal roots.

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Besides Anduin?

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Sounds like an opinion.

Only the part about it being boring. I’m afraid the part about it being very powerful and devoid of any connection to the Night Elves primal roots isn’t.

If memory serves, the whole “Night Elves came from Trolls” thing was added in much later. I think it was hinted at around Cataclysm and then formally made canon in Chronicle, but could be wrong. All together, I’m a fan of that change - makes connections and it’s also very fun RPing as a Night Elf who abjectly refuses to accept they have anything to do with those wart-licking, zit-popping, voodoo-spitting troglodytes.

So, when you say, “Troll Pantheon”, I’m assuming you are referring to the Loa. A loa is basically defined as, “anything worshiped by trolls”. These can be anything, though most of them are wild gods. Since, Elune was worshiped by Dark Trolls, she was originally a Loa, in lore, but that’s more of a semantics thing.

The Dark Trolls that would become the kaldorei didn’t start worshiping Elune until they got to the Well of Eternity. Which implies that Elune wasn’t some figure previously in the troll pantheon that was just rebranded a little bit. So, I’d imagine the dark trolls incorperated Elune into their worship, as per the crumbling ceremonial vestments flavor text, but Elune was always seperate and distinct from the more primal Loa. Then, as kaldorei fully emerged, they abandoned their Loa roots all together. Or… Just started to refer to the Loa as “Wild Gods”.

Having been a Night Elf fan for several years though… I maybe wouldn’t be disappointed if Elune turned out to be some primal spirit. However, the appeal of Elune has always been her astral mystique, and that just doesn’t vibe with the “big, voodoo animal” themes that the Loa typically have.

At least for me, and I’d hope I’m not alone in the night elf fan community in this, the addition of “they were actually trolls!” is viewed as “huh, alright.” Maybe even, “huh, neat.” It’s not a defining trait of the Night Elves. It’s half of a paragraph in a long tome of kaldorei lore. Which definitely can’t be said for Elune. So, framing Elune over “primal roots” would be taking the most important thing and making it focus on a side note, which isn’t satisfying.

Additionally, there’s also the idea that there’s been some big, important mystery about Elune since WC3, and it’s only been built on and extrapolated from there. Having her be anything but something special in a very specific way that makes her very powerful would be a let down. Eighteen years of Warcraft lore doesn’t simply resolve itself with, “And the big secret is… she was a simple loa all along.” Also, she is vastly more powerful than of what we’ve seen the loa capable.

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