I’d even go so far as to not be bothered to find out that Trolls are Titan constructs like to Mogu, just originating from Uldir and MOTHER instead.
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That’d be neat! It’s a weird balance, though. It’s really cool to draw connections, and a “common source” is interesting in that… It can facilitate explaining things without handwaving. Using the curse of flesh as an example, “why are there so many species on Azeroth?” is answered very cleanly by, “titans build them, then they were corrupted to have flesh” rather than needing an individual origin for each species, which becomes needlessly tiring.
However, drawing too many connections leads to homogeneity. I wouldn’t be opposed to trolls being Titan constructs, but I’m also happy leaving their origins as “mysterious”, because it’s a little bit of flavor in the cosmology.
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That’s what Tauren are for.
Azeroth is a ranch, and all the rest of us are just invaders. The true plot twist.
See, I agree they didn’t start worshiping Elune until after finding the Well, but I don’t agree it implies she was not part of the Loa. Certain troll tribes tend to favor certain troll gods while ignoring others. We only see the Zandalari worshiping Rezan and Sethrallis seems to only have worshippers among the Sethrak and Zandalari. Bwonsamdi is worshipped by the Darkspear and a handful of others. The adoption of Elune worship does not in any way imply separation from the Loa, only that the Dark Trolls didn’t worship Elune.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say the opposite conclusion is more likely. Elune is the moon goddess, but as yet there has been no connection forged between the Well of the Eternity, and the moon, and only the most ephemeral connection drawn between the moon and the arcane via druids, which didn’t exist in Night Elf culture at the time they adopted Elune worship. Had Elune been something completely new to Night Elf culture, surely she would have some sort of clear connection to the Well of Eternity to explain the timing. But no such connection exists, which implies simple, primitive trolls made an intuitive connection between two unrelated concepts.
Plus Cenarius was a full grown demigod during the infancy of the Kal’dorei’s civilization, and the interaction between Elune and Malorne that lead to his creation is a well known myth.
Fair, but we’re coming out of this expansion having discovered a “big voodoo animal” is also the god of Kings and a conduit of the Light. And Bwonsamdi disproves the idea that being a troll god requires that you adopt “voodoo animal” themes.
Rezan maintained the life of his chosen for centuries. Where Elune actually doesn’t seem to have been involved in the immortality of Night Elves, that coming from an arcane font and dragons. Hakkar the Soulflayer shows similar feats of strength when his very blood can drive ancient and powerful dragons to madness. And there seems to be a pretty clear and direct comparison between the boons Bwonsamdi gave Rastakhan and the benefit Tyrande received as the Night Warrior.
I don’t think she is more powerful than the most powerful loa. And I think this mystery you’re digging around is probably just the writers not having written it yet.
But I do want to thank you for your well written and well thought out response. It gets too easy to generalize the kind of people who would be upset learning that Elune was simply a part of the game world’s existing lore and not something exciting and new based on those who would be upset the loudest and with the greatest frequency. I’m not overly invested in Elune as a concept or a character, I think she works best as an ascended loa like Bwonsamdi. However, for your sake, I do hope they do something special with her.
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Well… There’s no suggestion that Elune was worshipped among Trolls prior to the Dark Trolls arriving at the Well of Eternity 15,000 years ago. It’s possible, but there’s no evidence backing it. The Tauren worshiped her for some time as Mu’sha, but anything about trolls worshiping her prior to the Well of Eternity is speculation, as far as I know.
Well… There’s no definite connection, you’re right. But, there is a lot of aggressive eyebrow wiggling.
- Elune worship started among the dark trolls after they arrived at the Well of Eternity
- The trolls believed her to be “in the well”.
- The Well of Eternity was made by filling the massive wound from Aman’thul ripping Y’Shraaj out of the world. It’s a lake fueled by titan blood.
- Elune’s magic is arcane magic, which the titans are associated with.
- Beyond “moon” themes, Elune also has “star” themes, which is shared with the titans.
- Astral magic is arcane magic, per druids.
- Elunaria was the refuge of Eonar.
- The Tears of Elune are a titan artifact.
So… There’s nothing “concrete”, but there are plenty of connections between Elune and the Well, mostly via their titan-themes/origins. It’s a little too convenient that the trolls arrived on the shores of a lake made of Titan blood, and then also simultaneously began to worship a Titan-themed entity. In the words of Randall Munroe, “Correlation doesn’t imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing ‘look over there’.”
I’m basing this off of my analysis that Elune did, by intent or proximity, create the Night Elf race.
Elune has:
- Created a race of immortals
- Redeemed the spirit of Ysera
- Empowered a race of people
- Performed feet of combat prowess
Among those, the Loa have created their own races, albeit mortal, and definitely have claims to fame in terms of combat. Additionally, there’s some flavor - like Hakkar’s blood being corrupting. Then again, Elune has her own flavor too - e.g. shooting stars at people she doesn’t like. A few have impowered specific individuals as their Avatars, but not on the same scale as converting an entire army of night elves into night warriors.
Perhaps vastly was a bit too flavorful, but she is at least as powerful as the most powerful Loa, if not moreso. As a mostly unrelated aside, she is definitely not omnipotent or omniscient.
Thank you! And I appreciate yours!
That’s the thing. As asinine as it may sound, as far as I’m concerned, the only people that Blizzard has to do right by in making Elune are night elf fans. Maybe tauren fans too. As long as the night elf fans are happy with Elune’s depiction, it doesn’t matter what any one else thinks. That is assuming her domain remains over the night elves and she doesn’t turn out to be something ridiculous that expands her reach into aspects of too many other races.
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There are also Moonwells, which have been connected to the Well of Eternity from the very introduction of the NIght Elves in Warcraft III:
- Moon Wells are hallowed repositories of the sacred waters of the Well of Eternity
http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/Warcraft%20III%20Manual.pdf
Moonwells have also been directly connected to Elune:
- The archmage has asked me to prepare this moonwell. Once it is completed, I’ll be able to sanctify its water for use against the demon.
Only one thing remains.
A piece of one of Draenor’s moons has fallen into a nearby pool on the far side of the woods. Such a thing is perfect for use in the dedication of the moonwell to Elune.
Thank you, <name>. The White Lady will be pleased.
And Elune has spoken directly through a Moonwell in-game:
- <A voice from inside the moonwell flows over your mind, bringing you a perfect sense of peace.>
You seek to cure a child, but know that all things come at a cost. To the east lies Raynewood Tower. Standing outside the tower, next to my moonwell, is one who has fallen into corruption.
Avrus Illwhisper seeks forgiveness and redemption, <name>. Will you help him to attain that which he desires and in so doing achieve your own goal?
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Loa is a really loose term for ‘‘god’’.
Anything god-like is gonna be called a ‘‘Loa’’ by trolls.
Even G’hunn, an artifical Old God has been called a Loa.
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I am a big proponent of Elune being a Loa, perhaps one of the most powerful, but it seems there a lot of people who refuse the concept for whatever reason… though I think it makes her, and the night elves as a people, much more interesting lore wise.
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“Making the night elves more like trolls makes the night elves more interesting!” - A troll
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It does, yeah.
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Again, I refer you to the example of Rezan. A god being worshipped by a singular tribe is not unheard of.
Easily explained by the glow of the Well of Eternity. A moonlight glow originates from it, thus primitive troll/elves decide that must be where the moon goes when it’s not in the sky.
Which would be fine if there was anything to indicate Elune was a titan outside of this dubious connection.
Elune’s magic is blood magic and divine magic more dependably than it ever is arcane. Has Elune ever directly employed arcane magic or is this extrapolation coming from a handful of druid spells?
Unsurprising that a moon diety gets celestial imagery.
And was likely named by the Highborne who possessed it.
Not really.
Didn’t do it. The mutation was caused by the Well of Eternity, and immortality came from the Bronze dragonflight. Night Elves, without intervention, are simply long lived.
Helped an immensely powerful creature redeem herself, by channeling her powers through the skilled hands of a 10,000 year old priest. Hard to say where Ysera’s natural powers end, what Tyrande’s abilities and skills augment, and how much pushing was left for Elune.
If we’re talking the Night Warriors it’s in line with what we see from Bwonsamdi and the loa of zul gurub. If we’re talking about the Night Elves, again this is going to be the dragonflights.
A feat all around less impressive than Bwonsamdi’s similar feat.
Once you account for the acts that are canonically the result of the various dragonflights channeling the powers given to them directly by the titans, what is left for Elune is very much on par with a high level loa granting boons and blessings.
I agree completely. Especially with that all important caveat that acknowledges the shared universe.
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Loa doesn’t even mean anything other than something worshiped. If you mean you’d find Elune more interesting if she was a Wild God, calling her a loa would be no different than a Pandaren calling Elune an August Celestial.
Or reverse, focusing on a loa as something that is worshiped, Elune already is a loa, which doesn’t change or add anything to what she’s already always been.
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I mean to the extent that they say trolls call everything that is akin to godly or spiritual a Loa, true… But I mean more with it having to do with the relationships trolls usually have with their Loa, and tying it in to the night elf origins as dark trolls.
As pointed out above Elune communes with her worshippers and grants them boons based on specific sacrifices and rituals, like we see in other troll cultures. So I find it an interesting take that Elune could be some sort of Loa, or Wild God, or whatever else you call these kinds of deities, associated with the Moon and perhaps other powers of the night, that the Dark Trolls “found” in the well of eternity, and worshiped as the Loa of their tribe… then over time as they changed into Night Elves, the religion took on whole different categories and terms, with the troll origins/terms being forgotten/abandoned, but the core of the relationship between loa and worshiper remaining… if that makes any sense.
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I don’t think their Troll origins were really abandoned, since they still venerated Wild Gods, just they were the ones on Mount Hyjal instead of the ones on the Zandalar mountain range.
Right, and I think Elune can fit into that pantheon to a degree… Like Roghter said up above, something akin to the type of Loa Bwonsamdi is. It’s not that their worship was abandoned, I meant that the terms and language surrounding it changed a bit… Such as, well, not calling things Loa any more.
(There was also a theory that I found intriguing that Elune was a Loa whom through the magics of the Well of Eternity ascended to something higher.)
Your claim is “Elune was worshiped prior to the dark trolls.”
Your supporting argument is, “Other Loa have be worshiped without our knowing, therefore, Elune must have been worshiped without our knowing too!”
Which doesn’t flow because… Just because it happened with one loa doesn’t mean it happened with Elune. Again, it’s speculation.
It would make sense, but it’s still speculation.
Elune also seems to have a connection to the titans. Indeed, she taught the dark trolls words in Titan such as “Kalimdor”. The early night elves also believed that Elune slept within the Well of Eternity during the day. The titan Eonar also took refuge on a planet named Elunaria. Finally, one of the Pillars of Creation, created by the Pantheon, the Tears of Elune, is named after.
Straight from the Wiki.
Can you please cite a source stating that Elune’s magic is blood magic?
Can you please cite a source stating that “divine magic” exists? Or, are you referring to “holy” magic, which is a manifestation of “The Light”.
The latter is very likely, because the Tears of Elune is a titan artifact connected to the Naaru, who are the manifestations of the Light. Khadgar speculates she might have created the Naruu.
In Vanilla WoW, priests had race-specific spells. Night Elf priests had a “star shards” attack that would strike enemies with a flurry of stars. The stars dealt arcane damage.
Just like how they named other Pillars of Creation after prominent kaldorei deities, such as “The Eyes of Aman’thul” or “The Tidestone of Golganneth.”
Hell, if anything, the Highborne would have named it “The Crown of Azshara”.
We’re talking about the Night Warriors. Did either Loa do that for a significant portion of their race? Or just their chosen “Avatar”?
Fair enough.
Here’s what I’m leaving this with: Elune isn’t a Horde symbol. She doesn’t need to be “made primal” or fit into troll pantheons. She’s a night elf goddess, designed to appeal to players who are interested in the night elf aesthetic. Having her be a “loa” (again, a dubious term because a rock could be a loa if a troll worshiped it) does no good to the fans who care most about her characterization.
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Elune already fits, as seen by the Crumbling Ceremonial Vestments up above. That doesn’t really suggest Elune is a Wild God or anything else, not any more than G’huun was a Wild God, who was also worshiped as a loa.
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It seems to be a transition thing. The dark trolls worshiping their old Loa at the same time as they started worshipping Elune. Which is how real religions evolve.
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No one is suggesting she should be.
Nothing that’s been suggested contradicts this, at least not any more than has already been contradicted or changed by further developments of lore since WC3 ended, in my opinion. She can still be a night elf goddess.