They might not want war, but they’re still fighting, they still pose a threat, which was what Sylvanas is trying to minimize.
Well, wasnt Teldrassil their last chance to become immortal again? They were in the middle of appealling to the dragon aspects to bless the tree again after being rebuffed a bunch of times.
And with Ysera dead things are even more complicated. Pretty sure ruining their shot at immortality was the angle with burning Teldrassil.
Holy butt-cannoli, this is all Greymanes fault for breaking the Latern of Valkyr Enslavement.
He thought he was top dog of the insane vengeance game. As with all other things, Genn was wrong.
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See, dear OP, there is some word play/hypocrisy at play here- free will is the cornerstone of forsaken society.
Derek is not forsaken, which is why i assume nuVoss didn’t care a whole lot about this whole affair.
The same way Odyn’s valkyr were -not- forsaken so everyone is okay with the slavement attempt (even it was for the “greater good” and shalala shalala)
Now, It would be foolish of me to deal in absolutes, i but i dont think its a stretch to say that most forsaken care about their free will first and would have simply seen derek as a more useful Theresa.
I’ve spoken in the past about the free will debate for so long I don’t care.
I can’t imagine what actual forsaken fans feel when they read this stuff. I will say one thing though,
In short yes, this is true.
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This is likely true. The evidence has never supported that they hold it as some moral code. But it is absolutely true they care greatly about their free will. Which makes a lot of sense as they have had it stolen in the past. But, we have seen them use mind control used as far back as WC3. And we even saw them experimenting with stripping will from humans.
I am not entirely sure how the idea that the Forsaken hold free will up as some kind of absolute virtue got started. My theory is that it was a way of attaching virtue to them. People wanted to ‘humanize them’ in a way that made them seem less evil. Latching on to one idea of this moral code virtue made them seem less like pure monsters. Kind of an ‘oh, they are doing bad things, but they have this rule that makes them good…ish.’
Sadly, I think that detracts a bit from their actual story. A lot could have been done with the fact that they are a race of victims. All of them prior to Cata suffered in the extreme from the Lich King. Torment of a level that would be hard to imagine. The idea that the more angry, darker ones would push to the front is not surprising. And it would have been better if we had seen the range of reactions from that anger to sadness to hope to heal. All of it. The idea of this single all encompassing moral code on one thing actually takes a bit away from their story, imo.
Probably bc lawful evil is easier (usually, not always) to respect and remember, and since this is a game, to insert into.
For example, “The Stand (man or machine)” is such a good piece of music bc of what Protoman is. He’s a fallen hero who’s now out to destroy mankind by any means necessary, deeming it unworthy of his protection after the humans quietly watched him die and replaced him. And while he’s an evil fatalist, he desperately wants not to be and is constantly fighting to have his philosophy proven wrong- thats his “redeeming feature”, it gives him depth, sets him apart from the Robot Masters, makes him interesting
(mind you, a villian with redeeming qualities need not be reedemed and usually arent)
Something similar is what I imagine drew many ppl to play forsaken (other than the models, simply being sylvanas fans, or the allegories to depression)
Now, Protoman’s tradegy loses weight if humanity proves him wrong a few songs down the line or if he was just an “gonna destroy humanity ay lmao” from the word go like the robot masters of that universe
Not really for two reasons.
- For the most part, I believe it was Malfurion that kind of accepted they should live their lives as mortals. That immortality stagnated them. And that the entire bid to make Teldrassil for new blessings was Fandral.
- Their original blessings were on Nordrassil. Seems like it could be reblessed if the Aspects really wanted and could. Nozdormu is the only one who gave them immortality, though. I believe Ysera strengthened their connection to the Emerald Dream and Alexstaza made them more resistant to illness.
As a “Forsaken fan”, I agree entirely with Gharion’s take on it. In all honestly, your average Forsaken wouldn’t give a second thought to what happens to Derek. He isn’t one of them. His well-being is irrelevant.
It’s super hypocritical. But it’s how the Forsaken operate. It’s something that’s been enforced ever since they started with the Free Will angle they focused on in Cata.
The Sludgefields in Hillsbrad is what exemplifies this the best, I think.
When you discover an imprisoned Apothecary Lydon, he lets you know that the real reason Warden Stillwater has to be put down is because his experiments had the side effect of turning other Forsaken mindless.
This place is no farm! Stillwater has been experimenting on the humans of Hillsbrad. These monstrosities here are all his creations.
That’s not the worst of it, <class>. The aberrations that have the key to my cage are former Forsaken. Stillwater’s experiments have the side effect of turning Forsaken into mindless zombies. Why do you think he’s so afraid of letting this out? He knows that such a crime is punishable by true death.
Sure, going under the nose of your superiors and experimenting on Human captives is bad. But he makes it clear that the true crime is what he did to other Forsaken.
It’s why I’m watching the Forsaken with a close eye. I’d hate for Derek to cause them to turn against Sylvanas because it’d be so unlike them.
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My issue with this logic is that the entire question that brought up ‘free will is the cornerstone of their society’ was raised in relation to how they treat people just like Derek.
Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
The Forsaken apparently go to lengths to offer post-manipulated Alliance soldiers a choice to join predicated on the idea of free will. Say ‘it only applies to just us’ seem to fly in the face of such consideration.
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My only issue with that line of thinking is Derek isn’t a part of the Forsaken society and is never meant to be. He was resurrected with one purpose in mind, to get mind (*&# and die again. The Forsaken aren’t looking to recruit him into their society, he isn’t one of them, he’s a toolbag to be used and discarded.
And again, this would be fine if the framing of the question was different. It was basically, ‘are these Alliance soldiers being mind controlled and are Forsaken cool with that?’ To which the answer was basically no, they give them a choice when possible.
The answer wasn’t, ‘they hold different standards to these people’. The entire treatment of Derek seems to fly in the face of the prior framing of how being given a choice matters as well.
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I think all Forsaken are subject to “conditioning” if their starting zone is any indication.
It’s a well known fact that newly raised Forsaken are often in a state of confusion and fear. Outside of the reaction of some individuals in starting zone quests (Lilian Voss, Macus Redpath, etc.), Derek’s reaction to being raised is really one of the first times we’ve ever seen this be more fully played out.
In the Forsaken starting zones, the ones who reject the Sylvannas’ bargain of fighting on her behalf are hunted down as “rotbrains”. Being sent out to hunt down these “rotbrains” immediately after you are raised is conditioning newly raised Forsaken into understanding that they must forget about who they were and what they stood for in life. They can’t make the same mistake as those “rotbrains” of holding onto their old identities. They are now Forsaken - and they must serve the Dark Lady. She will show them the way.
That is true. I had forgotten about that a bit during my post. It does give them an inconsistent feel (Inconsistencies in WoW!?!)
Thinking on it, I’d say the difference could be the intent behind the raising. Back in Cata, when this behavior started, there was a focus on the Forsaken population. And so, though raising the dead was used as a battle tactic at times, there was also an omnipresent need for new Forsaken. Actual Forsaken, not just mindless bodies to throw at enemies.
So this could be why they’d attempt to sell their free to the Alliance soldiers they just manipulated. Why there’s such a focus on the need of choice.
I agree that it still doesn’t mesh too well.
Most likely from Blizzard directly stating that free will is the “cornerstone” of Forsaken culture. A stance that is reiterated in game by things like the Stillwater quest line.
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I just largely dislike the whole ‘it only applies to us’ concept because it makes it extremely easy to get around by ‘othering’ anyone you want to enact it on. At which point it is kind of meaningless.
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See, I like it for the same reason. Because that’s how people actually behave. We’re all about rights and freedoms for ourselves, but tend to be less interested in the rights and freedoms of those we perceive as “other”.
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I can see that. And I actually don’t think the “it only applies to us” concept will last.
I get a very strong feeling that Blizz is going to be cementing what and who the Forsaken are as a people in BfA, for better or worse.
The Forsaken have never been against mind controlling the other tho, they flipped out on Stillwater because his experiments were affecting people who were already members of the Forsaken.
They purposefully create abominations in such a way that they forget who they were in life, they tried to strip Koltira of his loyalty to the Alliance, and I can’t say that they are above creating ghouls to do their bidding.
![:raised_hands:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/raised_hands.png?v=6" ":raised_hands:")