Forsaken aren’t evil - just traumatized

Going through classic, and questing through retail, it becomes rapidly apparent that the forsaken of lordaeron aren’t…evil.

Sure, there’s mind control involved with the scourge - that can drive people to do evil things. But that’s the thing - the forsaken are free willed - with all the memories of what they did when they were scourge - if they were scourge.

You’ll notice with older forsaken (older in this case meaning they’ve been “out of the grave” for longer, hence most likely a part of the scourge) that they are…noticeably more morbid. They seek to inflict pain on others, they pursue macabre and sadistic practices - they look upon mortality as some kind of failure.

I’d argue that this is just a response to seeing the back of Lordaeron snapped like a twig. Lordaeron, their home, the greatest of all human kingdoms, killed with the ease and cruelty of a man throwing a kitten at a wall. This kingdom, this new world they have entered - it has to be stronger. It has to be, no matter the cost. They have to be stronger than what they were before - and if we look from their perspective, from a proud citizen of lordaeron’s eyes - what was their failing?

They were weak. They were trusting. They were kind - and they were honorable. Thus, it makes sense that you’d start pursuing any underhanded means that you could to survive. You would build a new society based upon deceit, poison, and spiteful torture just to arm themselves against a world that threw them through the meat grinder - literally in some cases.

With younger forsaken, that bitterness isn’t apparent. There’s a lady in Brill who describes how she woke up - and nobody around her was like she remembered. Nobody wants to talk, nobody wants to interact - there hasn’t been a kind face in months.

Every victim of Arthas is a tragic character - and more often than not, a tragic villain.
There’s very few forsaken who sought to turn their trauma into something constructive, such as Bartholomew, who joined the brotherhood of the light. More often than not, a forsaken follows Sylvanas, whose response to her trauma is…understandable.
Sympathetic? No. Something to praise? Absolutely not.

But you can see how she got there.
The hopelessness upon seeing her home destroyed - her body taken from her - her very soul shattered. She had given her life for a null cause - and faced the same supposed truths as the forsaken.

Family meant nothing. Will meant nothing without strength, kindness and reason would only be subverted by others. Thus begins her dark crusade against Arthas.

I like to believe that by Legion…or at least, the start of legion - by the battle for the broken shore - that Sylvanas has hope. She is the one who leads the Horde assault, along with the rest of the Horde. She puts herself on the front lines despite everything that has happened to her - at the Broken Shore, this is a Sylvanas without fear. She believes in the Horde, she believes in Azeroth - she sees a future that could be bright.

And then? When she sees the Horde broken just like Lordaeron, just like Quel’thalas - the fear returns - and with it, desperation.

Sylvanas, when she is desperate, turns to power. Deceit. Deals and knowledge - with the goal of gaining the upper hand. I think Zovaal was…not someone she was ready and willing to trust - but what he offered her was freedom. An end to the pain, to the torment - to the fear. I think her “deal” with Helya was jus tot gain audience with him - and then the whispers began.

Feed the machine. Forge a new army - create your own strength.
Reason for the fourth war - and a reason for Teldrassil.
I think it’s clear in Before the Storm and the war of thorns, looking back from now at least, that Sylvanas isn’t acting out of malice. She has reservations about causing such a large amount of death - but I think she rationalizes it all in a way.

The more she learns from Zovaal, the more she believes that life and death have no meaning - they’re all just souls. Souls and flesh that can move from one side to the other. Death, as a concept, is meaningless. It’s just more pain - and life…life is pain. Existence is pain. It’s fear, and anger, and regret - and someone has offered her a way out. Not just her - everyone.

When she talks to Delaryn, we’re seeing her give into that argument. She sees the suffering of someone just like her, and thinks: I can stop this. This never needs to happen again.
She’s always thought the conflict between the Horde and Alliance is petty - and now that she knows it’s endless, she decides to break the cycle. All cycles.

Sylvanas isn’t irredeemable. She’s got a human character. The path she treads is one that we could mirror, given the circumstances. There’s already a number of institutions out there that try to place a minimalistic outlook on life.

And that goes for all forsaken. No matter how cruel, unrelenting, or unfathomable - there’s a person in there. Not an evil twisted thing. Not an animal to put down.
Just a soul who’s been in unimaginable pain and fear, and doesn’t know how to move past it in a way that doesn’t involve inflicting it upon others.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. :3

EDIT: IF YOU WANNA BE EVIL GO BE EVIL
It’s fun to play the bad guy! Forsaken are just complex characters and I really like talkin to’em in game

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A soul that should be put back to rest I would say.

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That was a lot of text. I thought the general consensus is that The Forsaken aren’t evil, they just have some very unorthodox individuals. Our own playable Forsaken are just some regular folks (Or whatever RP we want them to be).

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I was playing some Classic and wanted to share some thoughts. :3
I wouldn’t say it’s the general consensus - I know a bunch of players who are rather convinced that the Forsaken have been corrupted or something akin to that. Or just…kinda just deny that any of their behavior makes sense.
It’s not justified! But it does make sense as to how you get to where they are.

I also have a lotta thoughts and hence a lotta text. :3

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I was in that line of thought myself until someone redirected me to lore. The lore pretty clearly writes them as misunderstood. And that was back in the Classic days.

Nowadays, I wouldn’t doubt the deranged Forsaken are few and far between. You point out the why pretty well in your text. Today’s standard of Forsaken is more likely to be an average person than some fractured soul.

So yeah, hard to call them evil when it’s safe to assume the majority of them are still very much human.

Edit: Though it is nice to think of some of the major characters as “off.” Seems like a fitting identity for an undead race.

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Too bad the evil forsaken keep murdering the good forsaken though.

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Forsaken know how to party till they drop.

wiggles toes

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What we did to your deceased family members in the comfort of our old home is none of your business.

They why did you stream it on pay-per-view?

(giggle)

:cookie:

Here I thought this would be a treatise on the Forsaken and it turns into a ‘let’s try to understand Sylvanas’. It’s my perception that Sylvanas the Banshee Queen is the Mr. Hyde to Sylvanas the Ranger General’s Mr. Jekyl, at least that appears to be the current narrative. The former is evil, the latter not so much.

To my mind, many of the Forsaken remind me more of Zekhan when he said “The Horde is all we have”, and you could see that in the Forsaken’s eyes when Sylvanas said “The Horde is nothing”. It can’t be easy being formerly human, not alive but not dead. There have been some interesting machinimas which explore the relationship between the living and the Forsaken. Unfortunately, the bad stuff, like the Banshee Queen and Grand Apothecary Putress, is easier to believe.

I would like to think if it where to happen to us we would react in similar way ourselves. Being killed and being raised back as an undead abomination and then being forced to kill your loves one is probably not a good experience.

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Wrong mine is definitely always evil

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It is a treatise on the forsaken - I just used their most extreme case. Because Sylvanas is literally just like the rest of the forsaken - we just get to see more of her story. Shes the Bojack Horseman of the forsaken - she made every wrong choice in the worst way with the best intentions.

Every plague-spreader and horrific apothecarium has its beginnings somewhere, y’know?

I fail to understand how you can say that Sylvanas is the Forsaken’s most extreme case (of being an undead?) and at the same time say she’s ‘literally just like the rest of the forsaken’. Are you suggesting that all the Forsaken are extreme cases? I don’t buy that at all. She’s different than the rest of the Forsaken if for no other reason than she’s calling their shots.

Saying she had best intentions leads me to wonder for whom those intentions were best. They certainly weren’t best for the Gilneans or the Night Elves. They certainly weren’t best for the Alliance or even the Horde. Were they supposed to be best for the Forsaken? I don’t even see that as being viable, but, as I always say, your mileage may vary.

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She’s the most extreme case when it comes to her response to their shared trauma, y’know?

She, along with her people, at least the older generation, went through the same trauma. Killed defending their homeland and families, and then raised and forced to kill and destroy those same loved ones.

Every forssaken has a different way of dealing with it - and in my text up there I write exactly whose intention she’s gunning for: her own. She justifies her actions through some mental gymnastics that spin it towards protecting people - because I feel that that’s part of her core.

She wasn’t considering the night elves because she was considering the forsaken and the Horde. At the point with the night elves, she no longer considered death or suffering as something that was her fault - she considered it an unavoidable part of life. Killing them, for her, was merely sending them to her army, in the hopes of creating a larger force to end suffering altogether.

tackles the cookie gnome with a bear hug and wiggles toes

COOKIES!!

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I thought every race, or atlest the original races, had both good and bad to them?

all I know was when I woke up I was a simple alchemist and got sent on errand after errand by the Royal Apothecary Society until I ended up in world altering conflicts…some how.

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Forsaken were semi-complex from Vanilla → Wrath. Had a mixture of really evil forsaken some that were just lost, and some that just were as you said traumatized and dealing with the world in their own ways.

Cataclysm and afterwards? Nah. They just are straight up evil little bastards that I really wish weren’t attached to the horde.

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I just think they’re a bunch of cutie pies with their hunched over back n frowny faces. They always the best names like “Bawdybagz” or “Skellybones” to make it even better.

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Sylvanas is only out fir herself, everything she has done is to try and escape what is waiting for her in the afterlife, she got a taste of her jell when she jumped off ICC ever since then she has only seeked out ways to stave off the hellish afterlife she deserves