Yes and no.
I get wanting to see sylv beaten. But no, is I think we have a difference of opinion on how close Tyrande was to removing her head with her bare hands before the “she’s a raid boss” armor kicked in. Which yeah is anti-climatic.
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Great.
Thats what I wanted to see.
But its not what I saw and hence the problem. So please don’t tell me something happened that didnt.
They could have shown Sylvanas parrying blows but each blow would send her flying from the impact.
Her jumping and twirling would be cut short by a timely grab and thrown to the ground where Sylvanas had to dodge for her life.
When she says “I expected more” i wanted to see her dirty, dusty, panting, bleeding or whatever undead equivalent of it is.
I wanted to see her on the back foot.
And if there was to be a neckgrab it would not be up to my copium addled brain to assume how tight the grip was before Sylvanas starts peeling off fingers.
This was a horrendous cinematic, it proved to me that Blizzard fundementally does not understand the problem to even begin addressing it.
Please don’t try to gaslight me on something as dumb as WoW and what I can see with my own damn eyes.
It pisses me off.
If you wanted to troll then mission accomplished, you did just that.
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Really not appropriate to use terms of abuse to discuss disagreements in media interpretation.
Especially when we’re basically both describing how we saw something different in a scene and you’re being a lot stronger in your declarations of reality than I am.
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You are making me question my own memory and my perception of what is effing reality.
Gaslight is the perfect term of what you are doing and what you have been doing for a while now.
You have successfully pissed me off. Good job.
Are we done? You accomplished what you wanted. Is there anything else I can help you with tonight?
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As opposed to you telling me that I didn’t see Tyrande hand Sylvanas her butt pretty handily without breaking a sweat?
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No.
You did not.
You saw Tyrande momentarily catch Sylvanas after she gave her victory speech and within a heart beat her power fail her.
If I suspected that you had an ounce of sincerity we would go through it scene by scene.
But you dont.
You are a troll. A faction biased troll of the highest order.
A troll where Andiun telling Saurfang “come on big guy! There is still hope because love!!” Makes him an alliance character and it humiliates the Horde.
But Sylvanas and Tyrande doing their little ballet dance is actually, Tyrande absolutely destroying Sylvanas like a tank rolling over a bag of chips for 10 solid minutes.
You are being dishonest or so up your own butt with faction bias that you can’t even see it.
And I dont know which is worse.
But…
Let me add to this further so there is no misunderstanding.
Saurfang cinematics with zappy boy, saurfang, thrall and yeah even Andiun and his annoying as hell morality compass was Horde fan service.
Annoying but fan service.
The tyrande vs Sylvanas was not Night Elf or Alliance fan service.
Terror of Darkshore was fan service but everything surrounding it poisoned it.
The tyrande and Sylvanas fight should have been a massive fan service, finally giving Sylvanas a much, much needed L and humbling but nope. That unfortunately did not happen.
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That is rich coming from you.
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I have clearly explained all my points and been sincere in 100% of everything I said.
And I stand by them and can clearly explain why I believe each point.
You?
Nope, just “horde has it worse” trope and your “trust me bro” argument.
All you wanted was to piss me off and I congradulate you.
You accomplished that with your gaslighting. /clap.
Bravo.
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Your projector is showing.
And you believe what you say, and have sources for what you say. But damned if you argued against half of what I said.
I present points where horde could have helped influence a horde character (WITHOUT taking away the influence of Golden’s Golden boy) and you act like I want to write the alliance out of the story. Also some weird thing about me supposedly thinking Saurfang was alliance or something that I never said.
You keep telling the horde players how awesome we have it because what, there were a couple of cinematics that were pretty divorced from the story line we played through that did nothing to handle the distaste from everything the writers forced on us.
And just the constant dishonesty of framing every alliance victory as somehow ways in which they lost or something.
so please, keep lecturing me on my dishonest abuse of you.
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I addressed every single point that you have had while you kept ignoring half of my questions. Like who is the hero if not Saurfang? I am still waiting for that one.
I asked you several times to explain Alliance PoV bias but you wanted to do BFA victim olympics.
You suggested that Saurfang literally leaves with the Horde PC. Where was Andiun supposed to make his great entrance? Holding the door open for the Horde PC’s?
Just repeat what they already said and what Saurfang wants to do anyway? And I think I said or meant that he became an Alliance proxy because he needed to be encouraged by Andiun so everything else he did doesn’t really count as his or horde actions. You were literally saying he wasn’t even the main protagonist of the hero story you mentioned.
Now this is pure projection.
I said you GOT something nice, but you are trying to dismiss it as garbage or invalid. Cinematics that add up to more 15 minutes about orcish honor and horde redemption story meanwhile trying to elevate an ingame cinematic for me because of 1 second where Tyrande finally managed to grab Sylvanas by the neck meanwhile ignoring the context of what happened before and after between them as the epic beat down I described wanted and you insisted as existing.
Yeah clearly you are only arguing in good faith /s
Firstly fixed that for you.
And also because they did.
You take issue that Saurfang got a peptalk from Andiun as a gross violation that is enough for you to dismiss them all entirely but somehow Night Elves being raised into undeath against their own kind, the attack on Lordaeron failing as Genn and Andiun grimace in horror or Tyrande getting completely humiliated once again by Sylvanas and so on and so on.
My brother in Christ. Objectivity, do you have it?
Well you pissed me off to all high hell so yeah I will do just that.
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Like the gaslighting I did to you about how Tyrande beat up Sylvanas?
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Yeah like you’re doing it now. Quoting my hypothetical question by making Andiun’s contribution completely redundant.
And for the sake of clarity here is your real opinion on the cinematic before conversation made you more reasonable. Dismissing like cheap garbage, while Shredow calls it Alliance Bias. 
Because Andiun had to be Saurfang’s samwise gamgee.
Why? Because Andiun, representing Alliance was there to be the cheerleader for the Horde character.
You go in so far to say he isn’t even the hero of the story. So who is it Tarrok the lighter of gases? Who is the hero? Keep dodging 90% of what I said to quote things out of order and out of context.
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Can you actually read what I wrote?
I just said put in some point that give Saurfang reason to think about what was going on by the horde party in the prison, so that it’s not just Anduin being the only thing that convinces saurfang to do something. I’m not saying take the alliance out of the story, just stick some horde points in the story that aren’t just stuff like “Oh hey, we set up this quillboar massacre of an alliance town, but the horde isn’t present in this story, let’s have them commit another atrocity with no build up!”
Because they didn’t reflect the game we played!
They were just there, look at this good orc who isn’t going along with this bad thing YOU are, that we aren’t giving you a chance not to be part of! But Saurfang is sad in 4k, so that makes it ok!
The point I was making at the end that there are parallels between the sad orc cinematics and the tyrande/sylv fight cinematic in how while from one perspective they may seem good for one party, but that party might have reasons not to think they actually were a good thing at all.
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You might as well take them out, what are they doing? What is their accomplishment? Convince Saurfang to fight, if he is already convinced by the Horde what is Andiun even doing there? Be the door man? “Ready come out champ” as he pats him on the shoulder?
Explain.
Because we had quests in the game and it resulted in the war’s conclusion. Everything led us towards that moment.
Its an MMO, this isn’t BG3 that you can pick and choose your own adventure. I was forced to be the victim and then be Horde’s emotional support dog while they figured out what they want to do with their life.
No no.
The point you were making was that the thing I mentioned I wanted to see had already happened.
That is what you tried to do. Let’s not obfuscate further, and I ask again and I will keep asking until you give a clear answer.
Who was the hero of BFA if not Saurfang. Who? Give me a name.
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Well as Anduin put it, he couldn’t do it alone. And Saurfang probably would have felt the same. So both of them realizing they need the other to do something. It’s not a bad thing to include both sides in a two faction game.
We get a nice cinematic prior to Lordaeron about honor and what not. Actual battle is conveniently turned into a clean battle ground where all civilians (don’t look at the tank treads that used to be Brill) are evacuated, so the whole fight is JUST to protect Sylvanas who has already been villainized. We are protecting nothing good, just fighting and dying for no good reason.
Yeah, and that sucks for you as well. Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t suck for other people in a different way that isn’t cured by some sort of cinematic.
No no, the later post was not trying to relitigate that we see different things in that cinematic. But that like how you don’t see that cinematic, which others can see as a W for Tyrande because of other factors around it, the Sadfang cinematics fall flat for the horde because of all the other stuff going around.
I mean he was one, along with Anduin, Tyrande and Malf, the Nazjatar leaders who joined up while trapped, and so on.
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Indeed he couldn’t, I mean you complain about the Horde needed a shoulder to cry on but the Alliance guy admitting his impotence to the guy that was complicit in a genocide… and as him for help. But I guess you are settling on Andiun begging for help and giving Saurfang a “go gettem champ” line as Saurfang unpromted and with regal demeanor leaves the prison for his Heroe’s quest. Did I get all that correct?
You mean prior to Orgrimmar? Saurfang’s cinematics spanned the entirety of the expansion and resulted in the finale at the gates of Orgrimmar and the duel between the hero and the villain.
Exactly it sucked for both sides. So why are we pretending there is an Alliance bias?
No.
Full Stop.
The topic of this cinematic began when you started trying to convince me that the thing I wanted to happen did infact happen. And then you tried to gaslight me into seeing what wasn’t there.
That is what happened, and that is why I accuse you of gaslighting. Don’t change the subject now. You know exactly what you did, you were in your BFA victim olympic blood sport mentality and the idea of admitting to parity of sucking cinematics was not conceivable.
Now that its the day after you are trying to reorient yourself.
He was the hero that saw the village burn.
He was the hero that went on a journey to gather allies.
He was the hero that faced the villain and won.
Won through martyrdom, but he won.
He was the hero. No other on that list went through this.
Everyone else was a side a character compared to him.
Tyrande was present for one questline after prepatch. After that she disappeared. And you are trying to argue she among everyone else is on the hero’s journey? Are you high?
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So you just want a game that’s the good guy faction and then the inferior faction that can always be wiped out by them, but on occasion can magically hurt them bad? Did I get that all correct?
No I did not.
For someone who is doing way more to try and invalidate what I saw in a whole bunch of cinematics you really like to say I do that just because I don’t think the same as you.
That’s Anduin who gathered Saurfang all on his lonesome and set him up with help to get started.
died before she escaped. Which if I remember my scorecard for the battle of Lordaeron makes it a defeat.
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No I want the Alliance to keep the little inch agency they got in BFA to remain.
But you want to cut that out too, I guess even having a hint of comptence from Alliance is too much to bear for you.
You must have because it would not make any sense.
So you admit to what you tried to do? And now trying to justify yourself by saying I did the same thing?
What did I invalidate? Saurfang’s story is the story of the Horde on repeat. This is true.
Saurfang is also the hero in the hero’s journey almost to a 1:1 degree.
I am not questioning your perception of reality or tell you something doesn’t exist when it does.
So now you are arguing Andiun is the protagonist in the BFA’s heroes journey.
Yeah the victim olympic’s brain is in full operation isn’t Tarrok? Let me help you.
Just because Saurfang is the hero of BFA doesn’t mean he wasn’t a crappy hero, it doesn’t mean that the horde didn’t get absolutely dumpstered in BFA. I know all your neurons are firing on all cylinders for your nonsensical contrarian arguments but Saurfang was the main protagonist of those cinematics and he is the hero of this journey but that doesn’t mean you had to enjoy it or what they represented.
He made her expose herself and leave the Horde. He effectively took his horde back, got the honourable death he craved and saved more lives on both sides on his one last act.
Do you have to like it? No. Was it Horde fan service? Yes.
Saurfang wasn’t an Alliance character, he wasn’t a proxy character, there was no Alliance bias. It was a Horde story by a Horde character with tons and tons of Horde fan service.
I hope to one day see something like it again but for the Alliance.
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Then why act like giving the horde a little bit of input into what THEIR faction leaders do?
Or that it’s somehow a slight against the alliance that they can’t just solo the horde no problem?
The Old Soldier cinematic that preceded the battle of Lordaeron.
Nope. I just don’t see things the same as you do.
I mean you’re still arguing that we should act like BFA was centered on the Horde and not the Alliance.
Nope, just that in that point he filled the role you were assigned to Saurfang better than Saurfang did.
She escaped after killing him without consequences to herself. As I have been told over and over again about how the Alliance lost Lordaeron, that’s another victory for Sylv.
Oh, this is not a point you should bring up about what counts as faction fan service coming from someone with a preference for the other faction.
Don’t lie to my face like this.
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Because that little input is ALL that the Alliance gets.
The Horde gets the PoV after the burning, then they get hero’s call, then they go gather the allies and it is they that challenge to fight the villain.
We were just there to be the helping hand and helping word for ONE character.
Thrall and Zappyboi also played supporting roles. We had one character and you are pretending Saurfang was led around by a leash.
That’s not the only cinematic, there were several others, why are you focussing on this? Its just the start of the journey.
You want to go scene by scene, second by second how “Tyrande was beating Sylvanas within an inch of her life” We could count them.
Because the single moment where Tyrande was actually “beating” Sylvanas up was 1 second I think. Maybe two before the power failed her.
It literally was centered around the Horde, how was it possible “centered” around the Alliance? You really want to do another BFA victim olympics?
You are insane. Like legitimately the grey matter between your ears does not function if you think Andiun was the protagonist of the Saurfang cinematics.
Actually this might make sense, why else would you think BFA was centered around Alliance 
He put a scratch on her.
Tyrande didn’t even get to do that.
it was faction fan service. Get over it.
Just as the current Tyrande and the stupid seed cinematics are Night Elf fan service.
I hate them but they are fan service.
Wake up and face reality. Just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t change what they are.
If Blizzard wanted to fan service the Alliance those cinematics would not be about Saurfang. They would be about Tyrande or Jaina… or maybe even Andiun himself!
But nope. We had to watch some Orcs feel sorry for themselves and then put on their big boy pants and save us all from the goth queen.
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