Would you have really cared if Katherine died?
Better than nothing. 
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Do not play this BS.
By the Alliance. Because god forbid someone on the horde actually do something like that.
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They baited me so hard with this character. He was teased in MoP as a great thematic counterpart to Jaina, and could’ve been cemented as the Horde’s mage guy opposite a more Alliance-aligned Khadgar in WoD. But instead they did absolutely nothing with him after Patch 5.1 and the Kirin Tor were made so giga neutral that he, an avowed critic of that faction, had no choice but to sink back into irrelevancy lest he risk a raid bossing.
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Killing the King was never Alliance’s main objective. It just kind of happened.
By Andiun. He lectures everyone.
I guess the rest of the points you can’t really argue them and you have completely abandoned the PoV comment you made because you know how ridiculous it would be to even begin defining it.
Just say you don’t like the story and move on.
No, but they still did it.
Yes, because the writers can’t seem to not use alliance figures for the main story points when there’s no some need for something to be horde. Like you can’t have a resistance leader that didn’t belong to a group before hand (although what looks like a racial leader plucked from the other faction is A-ok)
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Sure they did but remember it was also wrapped in turd. Like they didn’t want to do, they didn’t want the zandalari to join the Horde, they had to send a suicide squad, two leaders had to get their butts spanked by Horde and so on and so on.
I don’t understand what you mean by this.
I assume you mean why couldn’t a Horde character do this task instead, but I think you are forgetting zappy boy.
Anyway I think this discussion has run its course.
You did not want to discuss the PoV issue so thats done.
The cinematic are Horde focused with Saurfang as the main hero protag and yes Andiun does appear as a supportive character to help support the hero beat the villain.
If there was an Alliance only PoV.
If there was an Alliance bias.
Those cinematics would not be about Saurfang, it would be about Alliance characters, it would not be a Horde character challenging Sylvanas and so on. You get it, I know you do. Did Alliance have somethings to do? Yes. Were we there to be your cheerleaders instead of righteously smiting you like a hero should have? Oh yeah.
But it is what it is. I made my peace with it, you should too.
But lets do a thought exercise.
BFA happens, the Horde burns down Teldrassil and kills everyone there. Thats the story, no way around it with Shadowlands already in production for Sylvanas.
What is the Alliance playerbase experience supposed to be? You would remove even the little Andiun support speeches? Remove the raid that had us accomplish… killing a character we could not give a damn about? What would you have done to fix all this Alliance bias?
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Wait, you mean that they didn’t keep one of that expansion’s Horde ARs from joining the horde!? Next you’ll complain that Tyrande didn’t kill Sylvanas before the raid she was scheduled to be the boss of!
One leader got kinda spanked, the other got injured for a few after holding off a force that could take down a god and then left once enough time passed. Not like Jaina had any lasting harm.
They don’t know how to write horde characters doing good by the horde. I mean, Baine at least until DF basically existed (after his awesome showing fighting Grimtotems in Cata) to be the Alliance’s chill horde friend. They just are either reluctant, don’t think of it, or don’t know how to have a horde character be good for the horde outside of its relationship to the alliance it feels like.
These are not the same.
I mean, one of the ones with Saurfang was much more an alliance character based one.
But I mean, it’s one of those things like the lead in to Battlefield barrens for the alliance, where Blizz was putting in a “This is why the Alliance should care about this” moment to explain why they’re helping. Except these are more “Yeah, we completely screwed your faction over, but look, we made you some pretty movies to make up for everything else, keep playing please?”
a lot of the people there. It was bad enough as it was, it doesn’t need exaggeration.
No.
Geeze, it does not need to be major changes. Get rid of Saurfang telling us how much the horde sucks in SW prison and at least put in a part of the start of his path with the horde party. Baine gave us a note, Zekhan being in the rescue party to show him the hopeful side of the horde. Still have Anduin’s part, but don’t let it be the only part.
Raid’s fine other than that it sucked that our capital was designed for that first rather than for usability, and that they screwed up the unreliable narrator thing with the horde/alliance experience with having some scenes being canon for one side but not the other, just stuff like Genn’s dialogue with Rastakhan happening before the party reaches there so they hear it from someone who was with Genn so both sides get an exaggerated view of how that dialogue went.
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No I am complaining that it was stupid goal.
The Zandalari have always been Alliance’s enemy, so neutring them would have been better… like blowing up the pyramid or assassinating Rastakhan on purpose rather than an unfortunate accident.
And of course not stopping the attack because the Zandalari are mourning their king… thats just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard in warcraft writing.
Tyrande should have beaten Sylvanas within an inch of her undead life before the power got too much for her and started to kill her. That’s when Elune should have intervened and Sylvanas ran away like she did.
Maybe then we can see her get more jailer power and go boss mode on us until we free her instead of the dumb moron realizes she will never serve 
Easy tiger, the Alliance also faced gods. Maybe killing Rastakhan didn’t take all that long either.
You think they know how to write Alliance characters doing good by the Alliance?
Grass is always green on the other side I guess.
No, thats why I wrote them on different lines.
Saurfang was through and through a Horde character with typical Horde behavior. His whole BFA journey is literally Horde’s journey that they have done before.
And before you say anything Blizzard always retells the same story, its literally their one consistency.
What the Horde did in BFA is what the Horde did before, except this timed they did it in WoW for the current audience.
There was nothing about Saurfang’s story, mannerism or character journey that made him Alliance.
If Saurfang leaves with the Horde PC’s he will not speak with Andiun. Then Andiun would have no opportunity to establish that trust and relationship with Saurfang. Andiun would not be there with the Alliance to offer what forces they can spare to help or offer Saurfang his sword.
Your solution simply doesn’t work on a narrative level and all you would be doing is removing what little participation the Alliance was allowed to have in BFA in the faction war that didn’t involve getting beat up and cry about it.
I agree a lot of the war campaign was like that. Like even Horde players didn’t even know the San’layn finally joined the Horde before they got killed off.
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Like blowing up their major navy level neutering?
I mean, it’s mostly solid stone, so not a quick or easy task.
That seems less accident more “He didn’t bend the knee? sucks to be him now.”
I do not know why that line was in there when they had already done everything they came there to do and it was never meant to be an occupation which would have blown everything they just did.
Like she did?
Just saying that a raid group is pretty formidable and Jaina handled the Horde one just fine.
They have actually done that.
That wasn’t the point there. The point was that the cinematics came off as some sort of placation or excuse for what they horde went through and would go through with this expansion, not some rah rah moment.
Did I say he’d leave? Just get rid of the horde self hatred and have Saurfang think about doing something before Anduin came to him, so it would be less Anduin completely convincing him to do something and more Anduin coming at him with what ends up being an opportunity to do something he’s decided to do (and probably also a good direction of what to do) You know, so while not taking out the Alliance influence, not neglecting the Horde completely like the story did.
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If thats all we wanted to accomplish then I could have pressed the button during the daily quest.
And Alliance immediately lost their navy too so neither side got to do anything interesting with them.
You set a wet tree on the ocean on fire from intercontinental catapults. Don’t start making sense now.
Oh is your argument that everything was good on the Alliance side where aggression was concerned against the zandalari? It couldn’t have been done better to satisfy Alliance players? My mistake you are right there were no problems and everything was perfect. Only the Horde has problems as we all know of course /s
Because the next step would have been to take the navy and attack a horde soft target like Silvermoon or Orgrimmar with no navy to defend their waters.
Alright stopping right here.
If you are going to just be contrarian and disingenuous, let’s end it here.
I am not going to waste my time on low effort trolling.
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Yeah, to not the Horde. The Alliance didn’t not neuter the trolls because Azshara pulled something afterwards.
No, more that in order to make the Alliance seem weaker than they were, that Rastakhan just died out of nowhere, and not that the Alliance didn’t execute him for not surrendering.
So still leaving Zul’dazar having handled all the goals they had set out to do, if not perfectly?
I’m just saying that the dialogue makes no sense, but the action of leaving after finishing the mission was a good tactical move.
You mean Tyrande wasn’t moments away from popping Sylv’s head off her neck?
Probably a smart move, I know I shouldn’t have bit on yours.
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It was a plan by Sylvanas. Holy crap can you be honest in this discussion for even one moment?
I mean what I said was Tyrande beating Sylvanas within an inch of her life.
Instead she fought Tyrande by being more than her equal, gloats that she won once again and then farted her way into the sky.
The only accomplishement Tyrande had was she surprised her by tackling her to the ground from behind.
Amazing martial powers. 10/10. Chokes an undead until she runs out of power and see Sylvanas gloat even harder. Simply, it is impossible for humanity to write and direct something better.
Good. yeah putting you back on ignore. I thought you had something intelligent to share but all you did was start another BFA victim olympics debate. I should have expected no better.
You were never interested in the “Alliance bias in the narrative PoV” discussion.
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I mean, at that point she’s basically made her turn into villain for all. Would we give night elves credit for Fandrel’s moves in Cata too?
Speaking of not being honest.
The fight where Tyrande has Sylvanas on the defensive the whole time? Where Sylv never gets close to landing a hit, and is just dodging and blocking while getting pushed back and back constantly? And ends with Tyrande crushing her throat?
Yes, because it’s fruitful to have a discussion about subtler bias when things like “the story is told more from the POV of one side and that biases what stories happen” with “Yeah, but so that means there’s no alliance bias”
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Says this and literally in one second Sylvanas says she expected more.
Chains Tyrande and then shoots arrows at her.
Keep trolling Tarrok. Keep trolling.
And maybe I will work on my selfcontrol and not peak at the “hidden content” next time.
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Wait, so the cocky banshee that uses banter to try and put her foes off used banter.
Tell me how effective the chains and arrows were?
I really do not understand how so often the fierce alliance people love to turn alliance character awesome scenes into some sort of thing that shows they are weak and hated.
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What part of my statement about me preferring to see Tyrande beat Sylvanas within an inch of her unlife did you not understand?
You could disagreed. You could have said its a bad idea, you could have said a number of things.
You said it did happen. It clearly did not.
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You’re clearly just seeing what you want to see then.
I mean it’s like in say a hercules movie, acting like if someone put him in chains for a moment before he bursts out of them with his strength and acting like that’s meant to show the weakness of him for being captured and not an excuse for him to show off the strength that bursts chains.
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I literally described what I wanted to see, and what the video does not show hence my issue with it.
Why are you trying to gaslight me into seeing what isn’t there?
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Keeping it within ratings and feel considering they’re both using bladed weapons. What more should have happened in the fight?
I just don’t get it, when I watch it, Tyrande enters having slain basically a raid boss in one hit, and then once the fight with Sylvanas gets going she completely dominates it (after a start where she shrugs off the same method that let Sylv take down Bolvar as if it was nothing) gets in the Nathanos dig, and then crushes her windpipe. (not positive, but her dialogue after she is let go kinda sounds a little off still to me)
That to me was Tyrande kicking Sylv’s butt pretty thoroughly (while avoiding too many wounds and stuff for ratings) Is it just that she was throttling her and not like pounding her face in with her fists?
Did I say I want to watch Tyrande and Sylvanas swing and miss knives at each other for couple minutes before Sylvanas gloats couple times and then runs away?
Did I say I wanted to see Tyrande fail at her ONE singular moment of finally catching Sylvanas by the literal neck for it all to fall apart?
Is that what I described you answered me with
“That did happen though”?
I am going to answer that question.
I said. I wanted Tyrande to beat Sylvanas within inche of her life. Why? Because thats what people who kill and hurt the defenceless deserve. I would have enjoyed seeing Tyrande finally dispense some rightious wrath on the villain.
But thats not what happened.
Hence my problem with it.
Does that make sense to you?
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