Forging the Templar Paladin

One of the most exciting Hero Talent/Sub-Spec announcements was Templar Paladin, which will debut in the upcoming expansion “The War Within”.

I can’t put into words how excited this makes me. Easily my favorite of all the Hero Specs listed!

Hopefully, this thread can be used as a very early design concept blueprint for us players. Blizzard is looking for feedback in this area more than any other system for The War Within. Let’s get it going early so we can go live with the best outcome possible!

I will layout everything I have found so far in the lore of WoW surrounding Templars.

Up to this point, we do not know exactly if Templar Paladins will be the bridge between Retribution and Protection or Retribution and Holy. If we were betting, it is very likely the bridge will be between Retribution and Protection. However, it is important to note, Templars in WoW lore are known to share concepts from Priests and on occasion, a few healers.

So grounded in World of Warcraft, what exactly does it mean to be a Templar Paladin?

According to Wowpedia, Templars are a type of Paladin and Priest combatant. They are the most skilled in battle, but also the most righteous in their demeanor. Strength of arms and purity of mind are strict requirements.

Already from this introduction, Templars sound spot on for everything I have ever wanted from playing my Retribution Paladin! This definition gives me some Crusader vibes. Someone who has the battlefield potency and skill of an Arms Warrior, the righteousness of great Paladins/Priests and also the purity of mind that likely comes close to rivaling Monks.

This next up following info, is taken from the Warcraft RPG and is also known to be considered “non-cannon”. Nevertheless, it is important to mention!

Argent Dawn Templars, or simply Templars, are devoted students of the Holy Light. They have chosen to cast away traditions of the past to find the best ways possible to fight the growing forces of darkness in the world. Templars are similar to Paladins in that they primarily oppose demons and undead, but Templars go a step further and learn to use the Holy Light to combat other forms of evil with equal potency.

Templars study all forms of combat, and they find powerful/unique uses for the Holy Light. Most interestingly here, the more a Templar studies and delves deeper into the Holy Light, they abandon old teachings and connections to the world. They sacrifice much of their wealth and may even cast off their plate armor.

Among the eldest and most devoted Templars, rumors exist that these Knights are powerful enough to shield themselves from any form of harm and can banish a servant of the Burning Legion from Azeroth in a single strike.

An Argent Dawn Templar gains the ability to change divine spell energy into holy lightning that manifests as a silvery light. In addition, Templars may gain distinguishing marks such as runic tattoos, glowing eyes of a metallic color and even the loss of all hair on the body.

Lastly, the majority of Argent Dawn Templars are Paladins. Although some healers also take up this mantle. Argent Dawn Templars see themselves as a small silver light shinning in the darkness in the world around them. Templars see corruption in their homes and many organizations. While Templars and Paladins are indeed close allies, Templars feel that the Silver Hand overemphasizes tradition and order over general goodness and other values of the Holy Light.

So what could all this mean for the Templar Hero Spec coming to World of Warcraft?

We already know that choosing this Hero Spec, will grant us a total of 10 new talents. As we level, we eventually will gain access to all these new additions. Similar to Legion Artifacts. The only choices, will be between a few choice-node talent options. Really love this system by the way!

Whatever our first talent point is, our last talent point will likely tie back into it. If I am understanding correctly, one of the aims to this new system is to not add more abilities onto our bars. Instead, this Sub-Spec is attempting to narrow down and hyper focus on certain aspects of what is means to be a Paladin, specifically, a Templar Paladin. Whatever talent options are open to us, they are going to augment our existing toolkits.

What would I like to see from a Templar Paladin in WoW?

Most importantly, I want to feel that choosing the Hero-Spec of Templar gives me the feelings of a more dedicated, proficient, righteous and devoted Paladin. I am someone who has gone above what it means to be a Paladin.

I want to feel more “Warrior-Like” in the sense that I am tougher on the battlefield, more disciplined, skilled and focused. In real-life history, Templars were also known to break-up enemy front lines. Indeed a powerful juggernaut.

I would love to see our physical damage and sturdiness enhanced.

If we are going all in, I would primarily prefer to see options to forgo Divine Steed and instead, charge or leap on the battlefield! If options such as those are not on the table, some combat improvements to Divine Steed would still suffice. A talent, for example, that would completely alter the way Divine Steed functions. Instead of using Divine Steed as a “Sprint” type of mobility cooldown, let us summon our Divine Steed to charge directly to an enemy target. Remember those Unyielding Knights from Hellfire Peninsula? Just like that!

Another interesting concept, especially if Templar shares its connection to Retribution and Protection, would be the ability to use a shield and weapon to deal damage. This could be a one hander or even a two hander! This is a way to bolster the defensiveness of a Templar while also showing some love to the idea that Templars have mastered many forms of combat.

What I would not like to see…

Absolutely no focus on Consecration as it exists now. My fear is that Templar will share a connection to Retribution and Protection, and that Blizzard will start trying to incorporate the benefits Protection gains from Consecration into Retribution.

Please do not go down this route. Consecration is boring and makes us more stationary. Especially in PvP environments, this is deeply frustrating.

What ideas do you have?

What would you like to see for Templar Paladins?

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IMO it will massively depend on Prot rework for next expac.

They didn’t announce it and it’s conjectural but the new direction will undoubtedly affect the Templar sub-spec.

Taking this into account, I can’t imagine consecration playing a role in it but Blizz has shown to be stubborn before with unfun concept.

Hell, prot tier set for 10.2 is based around consecration…

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When I first saw the Blizzcon screen with the Hero Spec names, I actually thought the Lightsmith was a typo and was meant to be Lightbringer.

With that in mind, I actually thought Templar would be the Prot/Holy Sub spec, while Lightbringer would be the Holy/Ret.

Prot - (Templar) - Holy - (Lightbringer) - Ret - (Herald of the Sun) - Prot

Templar:

  • Focuses on SotR and Holy Shield, maybe 2h+Shield

Lightbringer

  • Focuses on Holy Shock, Judgement, and “Light” based abilities
    • Beacon of the Lightbringer
    • Tempest of the Lightbringer
    • etc…

Herald of the Sun

  • Focuses on Radiant and Holyfire abiities
    • Blades of Justice, Penitence.
    • Tyr’s Enforcer
    • Consecration

With that being said, I would love for Templar to focus on melee gameplay.

  • Holy Shield
  • Shield of the Righteousness enhancements
  • 2h+ Shield would be the dream
  • Devo Aura enhancements
  • Avenger’s Shield for Holy
  • Merciful Auras for Prot
  • Guardian from Diablo3, which is basically an Intervene spell

Imgur

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Interesting response and that picture is cool also. Anything like that gets me hyped for Templar!

I hadn’t thought about it, but I would say that I like Lightbringer over Lightsmith. I even use the title from Legion in game.

I will go ahead and say that there is no way that Templar will not be connected to Retribution. Lightsmith is almost certain to be Protection/Holy.

I imagine Herald of the Sun is the connection between Retribution and Holy.

I do agree that 2h+ Shield would be an amazing dream for picking up Templar as a Hero Spec. Something about that concept has never fully materialized into WoW. The closest we came was Gladiator’s Resolve back in WoD.

I also like your suggestions for things revolving around Auras for a Templar Paladin. There is definitely some potential to amplify up our typical auras, especially Retribution Aura.

My fellow Templar pal, i agree templar has got to be ret/prot. 100% agree with all your suggestions, bring more warrior like skills. i want to really want to see more combat thme skills to the ret pally.

  1. Also leap, yes yes double check.

  2. Cursader charge ( please see response to 1.)

Also i would like to add some changes to tints for animation, maybe have the option our abilities have a more silver tint to it instead of gold.

Or more of a fire :fire: animation to it

Or throw a curve ball at me and have the tint be silver tinted fire or flames to our animations. ( if we choose to of course)

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I thought that too at first, but Holy doesn’t really have anything that revolves around Holyfire or Radiant damage like Prot has or had from tier bonuses. Which I think a lot of these talents will end up being, sadly.

Edit:

Talking with my friend last night, he made a good point of Templar being in-between Holy and Ret, with Lightsmith being Holy/Prot and Herald of the Sun being Prot/Ret.

With that being said, we talked about what the possibilities were for hero talents, and kindof came to the conclusion that some of the poor Class talents feel like they should be in the Hero Talent section, with the Class Talents being more interesting.

Comes back to this poor foundation that the class tree is built upon, and things such as Seal of the Crusader and Seal of Order being 2 examples of something that feels more “specialized” and fitting for a Hero Talent.

Seal of Might and Seal of Alacrity are those 2-4% dps increases that were reminiscent of the talents shown for Druids.

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Not to rain on your parade but you’d do well to nip those expectation in the bud right away.
You’re building yourself up for disappointment.

As far as they’ve shown those “Hero talent” will be:

  1. Mostly passive effects on things we already have
  2. Crossovers between OUR SPECS, not other classes. Forget warrior abilities…

Those are things that seems more likely to happen. :slight_smile:

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A brother!

But seriously, it’s nice to see another player already excited for Templar Paladins. It’s also awesome that you are on the same page as me with what you are wanting to see from this Hero Spec! I’m really interested in seeing just exactly what other Paladins are feeling would be some good creative directions this Sub-Spec could go.

I admit I would be a bit shocked if Templar goes Retribution/Holy instead of Retribution/Protection. Anything is possible though I suppose. My feeling is still that Herald of the Sun will be Retribution/Holy. Looks like we will have to wait and see!

I completely understand your realism. You know me, I am one who is quick to get excited over all things Retribution. Especially in our mobility department with leaps :crazy_face:

My plan for this thread is hopefully to reach other Paladins who are excited to see what Templar could become. I want to create and maintain an early thread where many are free to be as creative as they can imagine.

My only edit to my initial post was to the area where I mentioned Divine Steed. My biggest hopes for Templar will primarily be forgoing Divine Steed in favor of a direct leap or charge ability instead. But then I did have a thought about ways to actually spice things up with Divine Steed directly. My follow-up suggestion now if a direct leap/charge is not on the table, would be for Templar Hero Talents that augment Divine Steed entirely. My example was instead of using Divine Steed as a “Sprint” type of mobility cooldown, let Divine Steed summon your Charger to charge directly to your target! Very similar to the Unyielding Knights in Hellfire Peninsula if you can remember them!

This is absolutely a more grounded and likely option compared to granting us a direct leap/charge as the Templar Paladin player. I have a feeling we could really push Blizzard in this direction!

Very true. But to expand on that a little bit more, Ion has said in the Deep Dive presentation that no part of this upcoming expansion is more prone to iteration and feedback than Hero Talents. So many things are still possible at this stage of the game. I may also be mis-remembering here, but I think Ion also said in showcasing those Druid examples, that they are a bit more passive than some of the other Hero Talent trees.

Nevertheless, I always appreciate your feedback responses!

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I mean, I love nerding out about his stuff and having creative discussions about how the fantasy of the class can be better, especially paladins.

It’s just pretty hard at this point, imo, because the Class Tree, which I feel Hero Specs are more of an extension of, feels so bad.

Imgur

If you look here, you can see that there are still a lot of very underwhelming talents within the tree, and the overall organization leaves very little to be desired.

Blessing of Freedom is detached from Unbound, Improved Blessing of Protection is very underwhelming, 3 talents (4 points) can be invested in Consecration, which is not a popular spell and there’s a handful of underwhelming talents that could be treated more as a Hero Specialization.

Also, just want to add, I don’t really like the Consecration talents, but at least they are more interesting than simply straight stat buffs. They are at least something you have to interact with.

Taking it a step forward, when discussing the Hero Talents and options, I think Seal of Order and Fading Light are good Hero Talent options, those are things I would expect from a Hero Talent choice, not an end Class Talent.

You take out those same talents, and use them for a Templar Hero Spec and you get something that actually feels a bit coherent.

Imgur

Seal of the Crusader, stat buffs, movement speed buffs, etc…

I want to see some more of those Warrior based spells and abilities too, those brute force playstyles… but I truly think that needs to come from the Class Tree first and there’d need to be a discussion with the Paladin Dev about the capstones and a few fillers in the Class Tree before moving to the Hero Specs.

¯\ _ (ツ)_/¯

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This was interesting. Personally, I feel that our new Hero Spec Talent Trees are more of an extension of our Spec trees rather than our class trees. It almost has to be that way considering how our 3 new Hero Spec options relate to only 2 specs at a time rather than all 3.

I agree that our General Paladin talent tree has its lows. Things like talents shifting what they do based on if you are also Prot/Holy/Ret could be polished up a bit more.

My only problem currently with that area of talents would probably be Improved Blessing of Protection like you mentioned. Overall, a bit underwhelming and I do not see a reason why BoP shouldn’t baseline have a cooldown of 3 mins.

Overall, I also wish Paladins as a baseline were a bit more warrior-like. But that just isn’t where we are at.

Templar will be our next stage of the battle where we can hopefully achieve some of that ground from Blizzard. Until we hear any other information regarding reworks or talent tree polishing, our focus is best put towards the Templar Hero Spec!

Well I think it goes hand in hand, and I think focusing on the class tree would only better enhance the class over all, and allow for those bigger changes that you’d like to see.

Imgur

We have ~10 terrible talents in the tree right now.

If you remove those 10 and revamp the idea of our final cap stone talents, what are 3 talent options you’d like to see?

For me, I’d like to see:

  • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance
  • Divine Purpose + 2hander and Shield
  • Vanquisher’s Hammer (HoW Replacement) + Awakening

However, I’d like enough “filler” talents to be in there that you could only get 2/3 cap stone options. More so making them hard choices.

Now with this adjustment taking into consideration, I can expand on them in Hero Talents.

Vanquisher’s Hammer

  • Hurl a magical hammer at your current target, dealing X Holy damage and making your next Templar’s Verdict trigger Divine Storm.
    • This effect is increased by Y% when used on a target below 20% health.

Templar Hero Talent:

Templar’s Hammer (learn Vanquisher’s Hammer if not already known)

  • Hurl a magical hammer at your current target, dealing X Holystrike damage and making your next Templar’s Verdict trigger Divine Storm.
    • This effect is increased by Y% when used on a target below 35% health.

Herald of the Sun Hero Talent:

Anshe’s Hammer (learn Vanquisher’s Hammer if not already known)

  • Hurl a magical hammer at your current target, dealing X Radiant damage and making your next Templar’s Verdict trigger Searing Light.
    • This effect is increased by Y% when used on a target below 20% health.

Because I made Vanquisher’s Hammer a final capstone talent, its much easier to have slightly different passives enhance those already cool abilities.

The issue is, right now there’s nothing really cool in the trees for the Hero Talents to enhance. =/

I immediately thought Retribution for Templar, since we already have Templar named abilities for Retribution.

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Yeah, it’s fine if the Templar is a subspec of Ret/Prot as well, most of which doesn’t matter because the baseline of Paladins is pretty lacking in the RP aspect.

The revamps were really well done for mid expansion changes, but they left little to be desired in this idea of super unique spells and abilities when compared to say-- The Hunt or Spear of Bastion.

Divine Toll for example is just “AoE Judgement.”

So what we are going to end up seeing is:

Templar Talent:

Wrathful Judgement

  • Hammer of Wrath now applies Judgement to enemies.

Right, this is just the current tier bonus being repackaged into the Templar Hero spec. It makes sense, it’s themed after being a templar of sorts, and it works for Ret and Prot.

But, does it really make you feel more like a Templar?

There has to be a way to convey to the Developers that those baseline fantasies for Paladins aren’t that exciting. Our capstones are simple passives and the Hero talents will just be passives upon passives, that’s not very fun.

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I’d rather they simply FIX the class tree, THEN focus on making the hero talent trees more class based, personally. I know that’s asking a lot, but go big or go home, right?

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all i want is a shield and polearm spec
could be glorious
past time they added animations for 2h and shield stuff

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That’s what I’m trying to get at for what I think the OP wants, and I’d argue the general population. I saw a lot of excitement for the Templar sub spec through various media, but I feel it will all be lost on Paladins.

Our cap stone talent in the Class Tree is “Hammer of Wrath always crits.” There’s very little to build upon to make that feel like more of a “Templar ability.”

It’s a weird problem with Paladins because we have a lot of identity to build off of for Herald of the Sun and a Lightsmith given our Ret tree already focusing heavily on those two playstyles.

There’s just very little to build upon for a Templar to the extent most people I think want, which is why I’d be more interested in hearing ideas for fixing the Class Tree first, something more unique and iconic to the Paladin class.

This entire thread reads like full redesigns for ret and people should not put too much into the new talents… Not saying your ideas ar bad, but the hero specs will probably just be passive 5% increases.

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My hope is it changes things enough it feels like I’m playing a Templar. The worst thing that can happen is if we get these and it doesn’t make the spec feel any different…

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It will make them feel different in the sense each spec will have more healing more tankiness/control or more damage like in dots

It will be ret/tanky or ret/healery for pvp and ret /dot for max damage pve.

Im down for just that, I guess my expectations didnt really reach the levels of others. But I wanted one button per hero spec. If our trees are all passives now that would be disappointing but expected. Just one.

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Even this is okay. As long as we can feel the difference.

IMO, id like some visual differences too even though i don’t think that will happen lol.