I agree with this. although all of these ideas are awesome. I think we need to settle down our expectations a little. Even though i love all of these lol.
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Ret got a specific rework and so they couldn’t touch on the class tree too much even though they did modifications.
Same happened with holy but class tree was largely left alone because it was specific to holy again.
Now Prot should be on the horizon, even though the spec works, their philosophy for what they wanted for Prot is disjointed from how people actually play it.
They wanted less “SotR spam/uptime” but didn’t bother to make talents (Aside from Inner light lol) to do so and left every previous expac ideas that incentivized spamming it.
On top they made AS not give HP which feels bad even if its still playable.
If that’s not what they want, they have to massively change it and that’s the kind of rework that goes into a new expac and so there might be an opportunity to rework the class tree there.
Now this shouldn’t be a complete redesign but it could be profitable to re-establish better class identity and make some abilities baseline with upgrade choices in the tree rather than have the abilities themselves be there.
EDIT:
Obligatory mention, it shouldn’t be possible to take all 3 capstones.
We’re balanced around that which makes the possibility of making choices vanish as it would just be a throughput loss.
Speaking as Ret…
It’s not a big deal right now because most the talents in the third part are worthless (Faith’s armor, Strength in Conviction, Touch of light/incandescence, nerfed DP) but if any of those were actually interesting talent, we’d be stuck not even thinking about taking them.
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It’s not a redesign for Ret, it’s a much needed redesign for our Class Tree.
Ret and Holy has so many good talent choices, there’s almost nothing I don’t want in those trees, the Class Tree however, is just lacking in terms of diversity in spell design… it’s all just passives.
Divine Toll being in the Spec trees, Blessing of Season being Holy only, and Vanquisher’s Hammer being split into Empyrean Legacy and Empyrean Power, we were just playing Beta Paladins for 2 patches.
These talents need to be reworked.
- Our capstones are not interesting.
- Of Dusk and Dawn and Seal of Order are better suited for Lightsmith.
- Those 9 talents aren’t really fun to spec into, they add nothing of depth to our class.
You could take this a step further and pull some abilities from our spec trees as well, just one’s that aren’t doing amazing:
Holy:
- Tirion’s Devotion
- Empyrean Legacy
- Merciful Auras
- Awakening
Ret:
- Empyrean Legacy
- Judgement of Justice
- Consecrated Ground
Prot:
- Light of the Titans
- Seal of Charity
- Hand of the Protector
- Tirion’s Devotion
Those are pretty bland talents that don’t really see much play in the spec trees, or just fit better in the Class Tree as they are things like snares, utility, etc…
Again, this is because Paladins lack that unique RPG fantasy, the class tree needs to be improved.
From there, you can simply take a basic formula to configure the base of Hero Talents:
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I think overall, you made some interesting differences between the effects that Vanquisher’s Hammer would have depending on the Hero Spec chosen. However, this thread is focused only on crafting the overall idea of what it means to be a Templar Paladin in-game. Then, trying to come up with creative ideas as to what players would like to see for these 10 new talent points.
I am also not sure if you thought about this, just because I didn’t see you cover it, but Ret has a spec tree talent where judgment auto triggers Divine Storm every 20 secs. Essentially the same mechanic as Vanquisher’s Hammer as you have it described.
I’ll admit too, I like your spins on Vanquisher’s Hammer, but I was never personally a fan of this ability in general and would not be excited to see it return in any fashion.
Absolutely disagree here but I understand your point and where you are coming from.
Absolutely agree here. I have always thought Divine Toll was lackluster as a Retribution Paladin specifically. Not as exciting as Spear of Bastion or Abomination’s Limb for examples.
Really enjoying a few players already getting behind an idea like this for Templar. Assuming that Templar is the bridge between Retribution/Protection, I could absolutely see a talent that mixes both. This also plays perfectly into the lore of Templars in that they have mastered many forms of combat.
This is what I am trying to avoid. I understand that players will always have ideas on how to improve the class and specs they enjoy the most and likely have played for years. Believe me I am incredibly passionate about Retribution. But this thread is dedicated to early design concepts for what it could mean to be a Templar in World of Warcraft. The goal is not to redesign our general Paladin talent tree or the Spec trees.
We did see a preview of 2 Druid Hero Specs and they are more than only passive increases. It will not be adding additional abilities to our bars, but we all should feel a noticeable difference in gameplay from our choice.
Indeed this would be very upsetting. Let’s hope this doesn’t happen!
To add on more specific ideas on what these talents could be myself, I will attempt to flesh something out like this…
When choosing Templar as your Hero Spec, which I am assuming is the bridge between Retribution/Protection, the first talent point could go something like this as a few design direction options that are reasonably grounded.
Divine Charger
-Divine Steed transforms into Divine Charger. Your Divine Steed upon being summoned, will now instead charge you to your enemy target and will persist for 3 seconds afterwards.
All normal Paladin general talent tree talents will still amplify Divine Charger. As in you can have an additional use of the ability and its duration will persist for even longer.
Aura Avatar
-Your devotion to the Holy Light and dedication to battlefield proficiency allows you to combine all existing Auras into one. Gaining the beneficial effects of all at a slightly reduced effect. Or perhaps gaining all of the full effects of these Auras but now your Auras will only benefit a few nearby allies or even possibly, just yourself!
Teachings of the Templar
-Your mastery of the art of combat and angelic protection now allows you to equip and shield and a 2-handed weapon. Bolstering your defensiveness while also maintaining your proficiency in battlefield righteousness.
These types of design suggestions help to create excitement, interesting new gameplay, refined Sub-Spec augmentations but still do not add any new abilities to our bars!
It’s not my intention to fixate this discussion on the class tree, but it’s not something that can just simply be over looked as Templar would effect both Prot and Ret and where they overlap in the Class Tree.
I would hate this on a Prot Paladin because it limits my movement. If I’m running away from a boss, do I have to charge to it first then gain 3 sec of my charger? That would be extremely clunky for avoiding gameplay mechanics.
¯\ _ (ツ)_/¯
If this is just a wishlist of things I want in a vacuum, sure I’ll take:
-
2hander and a Shield
-
Wings of Liberty
-
When Divine Shield ends, an explosion of Holy Light knocks down all nearby enemeies
-
Divine Toll now throws 3 Avenger Shields/Judgements in addition to its current effect.
-
Pressing wings now increases the armor and movement speed of all allies within my auras.
-
Divine Steed lays down a path of Consecration
-
When I cast wings I want a Guardian of Ancient Kings to spawn and fight with me for 20 seconds or a row of Guardians to walk forward attacking everything in their path.
-
Blessing of Sacrifice now intervenes to the target.
Okay i have to ask. What is everyone’s facination with 2h+shield for Ret. A shield provides ~13% physical damage reduction and that’s it for Ret.
I would say that 2h+shield makes more sense for prot, but Prot has no interaction with their weapon. So it doesn’t make sense for them either.
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…
Shield have main stats, stamina and 2 secondary which would all increase it’s damage.
It would also be a cool niche that a Ret could take a few hits when the tank goes down in harder content.
Aside from those practical elements, from a fantasy point of view it would be pretty cool looking and go a long way to establish this identity of immobile juggernaut they failed to convey for all those years…
If its related to the “Templar” I don’t see why they couldn’t both have it.
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Sure, but a very minimal amount. It’s like having an extra cloak. Which sure, is better than nothing.
If Ret already cannot do that, a shield isn’t gonna help. You’ll survive 1 extra auto attack in very specific scenarios*. And sure there are going to be cases where that extra second allows you to CR the tank and get through a pull with no one dead. But let’s be honest here, how often is that going to come up?
Besides, i very much doubt Blizzard wants to make Ret any tankier considering we got some hefty survivability nerfs shortly following the rework.
Unless the 2h+shield talent also grants some damage reduction. But then you run into the risk of groups ditching tanks in favor of a Ret.* Kinda like what happend with healers when Prot Paladin’s healing was brifely too good in season 1(?).
**But maybe that will be one of the goals of the hero talents. Proper hybridization.
The fantasy thing is a fair point. But Ret is hardly an immobile juggernaut, and i am not even sure that’s the fantasy they are going for anymore. Ret’s mobility is kinda average these days. As opposed to outright bad.
Admitedly, Hero talents allows a spec to have several identities. Definitely going to be interesting to see what they will amount to.
Edit: Although i am still not convinced Templar is even for Ret in the first place. Lightsmith is obviously about conjuring weapons out of light, something Ret and Prot already does. With all the hammers and shields, etc. And Herald of the Sun sounds like it will be about Radiant damage, something only Ret does. That leaves Templar as the Holy/Prot hero spec.
That’s still an item worth of stat more than other classes, Idk what to tell you…
You asked, what more would it add aside from 13% physical damage reduction, that’s your question.
Assuming the passive is literally just “you can now equip a 2hander with a shield” which it wouldn’t be because that’d be just lazy.
I understand they might not always been super creative with classes but I do not believe this would be making it in by itself.
Impossible, they wouldn’t have any of the defensives CD’s or talent making Prot a tank, not even close…
You’re blowing the supposed power of those new hero talents way out of proportion here.
They showed examples, nothing in what they showed suggest they are making talents that would have the power necessary to let the situation you’re describing happen.
And they didn’t just nerf prot healing in a vaccum, they nerfed all the specs that were part of those composition with their damage/healing CD.
Furthermore, it could be another flavor thing to add to “instrument of retribution” where it gives you 9sec of temporary tankyness, just enough to rez the tank or finish a pull.
They never said they weren’t anymore either but they sure ain’t going to back to what it was in MoP and the ability they recently gave Ret to attack from 20yds away seems to indicate they still somewhat go with this idea.
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/game/classes/paladin
That’s how they advertise it on the official website, draw your own conclusion from it.
You’re right, it’s not clear yet which is which!
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For me, the fantasy of it is a big appeal. Paladins in general don’t really have an unique RPG element that only they can do.
2hander dps? - Warrior and DK
1h + Shield Tank? - Warrior
1h + Shield Healer? - Shaman
If you want to play with two 2handed weapons? Only Warrior can do that.
If you want to play with Warglaives and double jumps? Only DH can do that.
If you want to tame 300+ Pets? Only Hunter can do that.
If you want to summon demons from the twisting nether? Only Locks can do that.
Etc…
While every class has their own spells and abilities, there’s nothing very unique to the baseline Paladin Class (and mages/priest are lacking as well).
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Herald being a radiant warrior that incinerates it’s foes and light smith being a green lantern is pretty straight forward.
But what is different about a templar than what a paladin already is.
I’m struggling to think of what is thematically unique about it.
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I would love if Templar would allow us to dual wield on ret. I know it wont but I would love it if it would.
Pony.
/s
I made a different thread a few weeks back about an idea I had for Templar Strikes. Basically, depending on what ability you hit before completing the combo, you gain additional unique benefits.
Blade of justice would spread its dot.
Judgment would increase your holy damage or attack speed.
Templar Strike would grant an additional holy power.
Meaning when you press Templar Strike for the first time and open the combo, the next ability you press before finishing the combo amplifies your combat experience.
Thinking about it now since the announcement of Templar, I would like to see some talents in this Hero Spec tree target Templar Strikes. This would help give the talent some love over just always picking up Crusading Strikes.
The effects could be endless here. Maybe a Hero Talent that just makes finishing the combo always grant 3 Holy Power for example. But something could absolutely be done within the Templar Hero Spec to impact Templar Strikes.
Hopefully as paladins we get lucky and get exorcism back. It could replace BOJ. Paladin should be more about casting holy energy. Maybe even a beam of light ability. Fingers crossed. Looking forward to playing Templar.
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Lol, won’t happen.
And certainly not part of the new Hero Talent if it ends up being anything close to what they showed.
A glyph maybe to change BoJ sound and visual effect.
That’s the best you can hope for.
We already have one?
I’m curious, what is Final Reckoning to you?
As it was said before, some people are expecting way too much mileage being done on the back of those Sub-Spec hero talent.
From what they showed, it seems very much done to enhance what we’re already doing by putting more emphasis on specific type of spells through passives effects.
You can probably expect some tier set effect to comeback through this but it won’t put your spec gameplay on its head unless they also make a talent tree rework to go with it.
Expect anything more and prepare to be bitterly disappointed 
When i think of a templar, i think of a crusading holy knight with a sheild and lance in hand.
So when thinking of an active skill with that in mind i think this:
Templar’s balwark: grants the paladin the ability to weild a sheild (ret) along with a 2-handed weapon (prot) and also grants you this skill
Light’s charge: make a quick single step dash forward using the light to push you forward, once at the target you first bash your opponent with your sheild for x radiant damage followed by a forward stab with your main-hand weapon for x holy strike damage.
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Actually, I could really see Exorcism making a comeback for Herald of the Sun. Especially for likely having that Hero Spec bridged between Ret and Holy.
Of course, if not, a glyph would be much appreciated for those who would love to see it.
This is a good point. I have a feeling we will see Hammer of Wrath apply Judgment from Templar.
Loving this theme and I want to completely get behind it. There was an interview with Morgan Day and Ion and a question like this came up. I want to say it was around a priest being able to use a sword and that idea was coming from the character of Anduin.
I believe they said while that would be cool, they won’t be doing that. The issues it would generate from gear loot tables was mentioned as at least partly a reason not to do that.
But I think with Templar, allowing us to use a shield and two-hander doesn’t cause those issues in this particular instance. Plus, if Templar is a bridge between Ret and Prot, it completely makes sense as Prot uses a shield and Ret’s use two-handed weapons. It makes logical sense that a Templar could combine and specialize in both forms of combat.
Also, a neat idea. There is nothing that could get me more excited in WoW than proper, thematic mobility for Paladins.
I’m doubtful they would go that far based on how it was explained through the deep dive. But I am still seriously hopeful for a Templar talent that augments Divine Steed. In a way that makes you summon your horse to charge directly to the enemy. This shouldn’t be out of the realm of serious consideration.
The problem with divine steed is that it is bulky.
Also paladins, as they are knights, should show some martial prowess. Which is why i choose for a lunging baised skill.
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Good point here.
Count me in. Would fit great for the 2 hander/shield wielding hero spec 
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