For the four of you that still want covenants locked

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

It doesn’t actually address what makes Covenant different from anything else.

It being different doesn’t mean it’s better.

We are already in a content drought and part of the reason is because the biggest feature of the expansion discourages exploration and experimentation of 75% of that feature for your character.

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Daark-cenarius

@Ddzz-illidan

I would rather they don’t waste time trying to balance features so people don’t want to swap at all (which is what they’ll try first and fail at) and instead fix a more reasonable thing like dead talents

So, let me understand. We all know that some talents are dead. And have been dead. Largely because their is no importance to fix them, because they are easily swappable.

But think covenants won’t sit dead in the same way talents have? Ok.

Covenants are already sitting dead? We don’t use 75% of them on a character. That’s a lot of content and feature wasted.

Make them swappable and they don’t have to be perfectly balanced.

They can’t even balance the talent rows we already have.

[Daark-cenarius]

@Ddzz-illidan

They can’t even balance the talent rows we already have.

Imagine if they hadn’t listened to the “everyone is going X covenant” threads, etc and knee jerked nerfed door of shadows or pelagos into the dirt.

Or weren’t worried about players complainants of “blizzard nerfed my lego to extend MAUs so I quit” and they could actually put out more than just bandaid tuning during an active tier.

[Sentenza-alexstrasza]

@Ddzz-illidan

Make them swappable and they don’t have to be perfectly balanced.

You can make the same argument for so many other things in the game. Let people swap class and they don’t have to balance classes. Let people swap races and they don’t have to balance racials. Let people completely reforge the stats of gear and they don’t have to balance stats.

Would that make the game better?

Sometimes it is better for the game for Blizzard to grit their teeth and make the hard choice and put in the elbow grease to make a choice that matters and put in the effort to try to balance it.

@Ddzz-illidan

They can’t even balance the talent rows we already have.

Just an FYI, Blizzard doesn’t try to balance all talent rows for perfect 1/3 1/3 1/3 balance. Sometimes they get into a situation where talent X is objectively more fun, and they’d rather people more have fun so they just let people choose X every time until they have time to loop back around to the issue and revisit the “choice”. It’s the same reason why Blizzard makes Demo Warlock bad, because for most people Demo is complicated and unfun so they don’t want people making that choice. It isn’t a mistake or inability to balance, it is a conscious decision from them.

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Daark-cenarius

@Ddzz-illidan

They can’t even balance the talent rows we already have.

Imagine if they hadn’t listened to they “everyone is going X covenant” threads like this and knee jerked nerfed door of shadows or pelagos into the dirt.

Or weren’t worried about players complainants of “blizzard nerfed my lego to extend MAUs so I quit” and they could actually put out more than just bandaid tuning during an active tier.

In other words you wish people were fine with the game being horribly imbalanced?

Have you seen that Classic raid comps look like?

Balance is important.

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

You can make the same argument for so many other things in the game. Let people swap class and they don’t have to balance classes. Let people swap races and they don’t have to balance racials. Let people completely reforge the stats of gear and they don’t have to balance stats.

You could.

But people aren’t. People are arguing about a specific expansion feature that we have a limited amount of time to enjoy.

Quit arguing strawmen.

[Plantains-shattered-hand (Plantains)]

@Asran-bleeding-hollow

I like the covenant choice. There is no ripcord.

What part of swapping around stops you from having covenant choice?

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

@Daark-cenarius

Imagine if they hadn’t listened to they “everyone is going X covenant” threads like this and knee jerked nerfed door of shadows or pelagos into the dirt.

But yet they did nerf Pelagos and he is the over all best soul bind for kyrians

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

Just an FYI, Blizzard doesn’t try to balance all talent rows for perfect 1/3 1/3 1/3 balance.

This is also not a good thing.

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

It isn’t a mistake or inability to balance, it is a conscious decision from them

Then they should use their resources to balance the fun factor of dead talents rather than chase an impossible task of balancing the 150+ covenant/soulbind/spec combos

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

Let people swap races and they don’t have to balance racials

Oh look you can

Race Change - World of Warcraft | Battle.net

[Daark-cenarius]

@Ddzz-illidan

In other words you wish people were fine with the game being horribly imbalanced?

Well, turns out they weren’t horribly balanced. Door wasn’t the end all be all. 75% of dps weren’t going Pelagos for double potency. The trees did not need to be 100% upended and shifted.

@Waidmann-gilneas

But yet they did nerf Pelagos and he is the over all best soul bind for kyrians

But now, for most dps overall not very competitive compared to niya or nadija.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Galabris-alexstrasza

Blizzard restricting covenants so hard is a first attempt to show the playerbase that you DON’T have to be fully optimized at any given moment to succeed.

And what makes you think it’s even remotely successful at this? How stunningly naive. As people have shown there is an enormous power difference between many covenants and all the system has done is further punish and alienated people who don’t min-max and pick an option for personal preference that ends up being crap. Huge failure.

[Sentenza-alexstrasza]

@Ddzz-illidan

People are arguing about a specific expansion feature that we have a limited amount of time to enjoy.

So is your argument simply “It isn’t a good investment of resources to spend this much time balancing a system that will go away in a year and a half”? Because I can understand an argument like that. And there’s some merit to it.

But then when you look at investment of resources and its worth, Blizzard is going to take into account the increased marketability of the expansion when they frame the feature as a “Mini-Class”. Which you may disagree with, but it doesn’t matter because saying that on the box creates buzz. Getting people to talk about which Covenant they want to pledge to generates buzz.

You may see it as a game balance issue and an allocation of dev resources vs “feel good in game” but it has wider ramifications when talking about “dev resource cost vs benefit”.

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

But then when you look at investment of resources and its worth, Blizzard is going to take into account the increased marketability of the expansion when they frame the feature as a “Mini-Class"

Adding swappability does not prevent covenants from being a “mini-class.” Final Fantasy allows plenty of swapping and they are literally known to everyone as subclasses. If they think that’s an important marketing term, it would still apply.

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

So is your argument simply “It isn’t a good investment of resources to spend this much time balancing a system that will go away in a year and a half”? Because I can understand an argument like that. And there’s some merit to it.

That is one of many arguments.

[Awkward-frostmourne (Awkward)]

Anti-ripcorders are nothing but contrarians.

They don’t give a damn about “RPG elements” or “muh immersion”. They just see people take a stance on something so they have to take an opposite stance.

In Timbo’s thread, if you poked the people who argued against him hard enough, every single one all but admitted they were outright trolling or only cared about the issue to spite “hardcore raiders”.

[Ddzz-illidan]

@Awkward-frostmourne

In Timbo’s thread, if you poked the people who argued against him hard enough, every single one all but admitted they were outright trolling or only cared about the issue to spite “hardcore raiders”.

This has already happened like 5 times this thread and it’s been pretty mild.

[Awkward-frostmourne (Awkward)]

@Bepples-barthilas

And what makes you think it’s even remotely successful at this? How stunningly naive. As people have shown there is an enormous power difference between many covenants and all the system has done is further punish and alienated people who don’t min-max and pick an option for personal preference that ends up being crap. Huge failure.

People rejected the path of optimization!

The vast majority of players happened to pick what was best for their spec, but that’s probably a coincidence. /s

@Ddzz-illidan

This has already happened like 5 times this thread and it’s been pretty mild.

Imagine my surprise.

[Timbaeslice-frostmourne]

You’re forgetting when you ask them how covenant swapping would impact them they also just ignore the question and reply with a strawman.

[Sentenza-alexstrasza]

@Ddzz-illidan

Adding swappability does not prevent covenants from being a “mini-class.”

For a while there I recall seeing ads on various different websites that would advertise “PLEDGE YOURSELF TO THE WINTER QUEEN” as a marketing gimmick for Shadowlands. I definitely think there is a fantasy they are specifically selling with Covenants that is lost if you simply open them up. Hell, the name “Covenant” itself implies something sacred about the agreement to sign up with one group.

Final Fantasy specifically markets the job feature as something you can change, it is even in the name itself - a Job, something you do as an occupation rather than defining who you are as a person.

---

Now, there’s certainly an alternate timeline where they framed the whole system differently with the intention to allow you to swap, but that’s not really where we are.

@Awkward-frostmourne

Anti-ripcorders are nothing but contrarians.

I like that my Druid isn’t simply another cookie-cutter Druid off the assembly line. But you’re entitled to believe whatever you like to rationalize your beliefs I guess.

[Awkward-frostmourne (Awkward)]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

I like that my Druid isn’t simply another cookie-cutter Druid off the assembly line. But you’re entitled to believe whatever you like to rationalize your beliefs I guess.

REJECT THE NORM. PICK THE SECOND MOST POPULAR COVENANT.

P.S. Covenant swapping could exist and you could still be a hipster.