Fixing the HPal Holy Power, Holy Shock and Infusion economy - an attempt

Holy Pallies may be entering a new weird phase in their history. After the multiple aura nerfs and targeted buffs to our casted heals Flash of Light and Holy Light, it’s looking like the pendulum has now swung in the opposite direction and instead of ignoring Infusion of Light procs, we might just ignore Holy Power and looking at top logs, people already are.

Note: Holy Paladins will be numerically fine next season, this discussion is more about the direction of HPal and the balancing act Blizzard has on their hands.

:dracthyr_shrug: Why?

The Wowhead class writer does a much better job at explaining this than I ever could so go read this post in particular about the topic.

Read the section titled "The Shaky Balance of Holy Power, Holy Shock, and Infusion of Light"

At its core, the reason we’re looking to ignore Holy Power is because:

  1. Holy Shock is our strongest button by a long way when you consider Glimmers. If you look at the top logs. Holy Shock is doing ~ 200k total healing per cast, far surpassing any other rotational spell.
  2. Our season 3 tier set is solely Holy Shock based. It doesn’t directly interact with any other spell.

Combined, this will lead to a “Holy Shock or bust” playstyle which in turn leads to a gameplay loop of Holy Shock → Infusion proc? → Flash of Light because consuming an Infusion of Light proc is the most Holy Shock CDR available (-2 seconds) and Flash of Light is the best Infusion consumer and essentially free. With so many Holy Shock reset interactions (Consuming infusion -2 sec, and a 22% chance to reset its CD at maximum Glimmers) combined with 2 Infusions via Inflo, and enough crit, this gameplay loop + our cooldowns is pretty much complete and doesn’t have a tonne of globals left for other spells.

In my opinion, that’s a little sad because hpal have a tonne of other abilities and a whole resource that will fall by the wayside.

:hammer_and_wrench: How do they fix it?

Well, this is far above my pay grade but there are a number of ways I think they could address this. Keep in mind that given the triangular tension on these mechanics, these suggestions may just introduce new tensions. :sweat_smile:

  1. When designing tier sets, they need to keep in mind this Holy Shock, Infusion and Holy Power economy. They could have for example, as part of the 4 set, encouraged Holy Power expenditure. eg your Holy Power spenders extend the duration of your active Reverberations by x seconds up to a maximum of y seconds or, your Holy Power spenders increase healing done by Reverberation by x% for y seconds stacking up to z times.
  2. Move, update or change talents that are causing this tension on the core mechanics of Holy. ie Take a look at the power of Holy Shock CDR (Imbued Infusions, Glorious Dawn, Crusader’s Might, Seal of Order), and what impact they have on the spec. IMO there are far too many Holy Shock CDR talents as if there were no other talents they could come up with. IMO this diminishes the whole purpose of having 2 charges. 2 charges gives you the freedom to press other buttons while not losing potential casts of Holy Shock. That’s just not the case with a talent like Glorious Dawn. There are so many opportunities for resets to occur (especially in raid) that with good RNG you can sit at 2 charges, spam Holy Shock and still not consume them all. That’s bad design imo.
  3. If Infusions are going to remain a core tenet of the spec, they need to add more ways to consume it. In the 10.1.5 rework they added Judgment but Judgment has a 9 second (hasted) CD. This means you still have to cast to consume all possible Infusion procs. They could add options that make Judgment usable with an Infusion even if it’s on CD, or add a talent that makes Flash of Light instant for a melee leaning playstyle, or even make a redesigned Light of the Martyr interact with it.
  4. Rework (I know, I know), the spec tree to create build diversity and playstyle options. If there were talents that enabled you to pick where power in your build lies (ie in Infusions, or Holy Power, or even Holy Shock), when a tier comes along that diminishes the power of one of these, then you can build your talent tree in a way that doesn’t make ignoring or devaluing one feel god awful. There are already elements of this on the tree, however, to give an example of this problem - take a point out of the middle section of the tree, where do you put it? There’s very little opportunities to think “I’ll put it here and that will make this part of my build more powerful or play different”. The top and middle section of the Holy Tree is still very uninspired. This one is probably the most difficult to achieve and won’t likely occur until 11.0.
  5. Remove something(s) from this spec. Having this tri-mechanic tension which sits on top of a full set of dps (and Holy Power generator) buttons + healing cooldowns + utility is a lot. I have a theory that prior to the rework they acknowledged that HPal had a lack of healing buttons. You’d generate Holy Power and spend - that was basically it. This led to a lot of empty healing globals. To fix that, they flooded the spec with Holy Shocks, buffed Infusions, CDs (a buffed Tyr’s, and adding Barrier of Faith, Daybreak and a tier set that buffed Light’s Hammer and Holy Prism). Now it feels like there’s just too much going on that you can’t use them all. I don’t want to go back to the season 1 and the lack of healing buttons, but I think there’s a middle ground.

A lot of Holy’s gameplay, talent, and tier design issues stem from the two opposing gameplay styles that need to be appeased. Trying to add interesting and diverse talents on a single tree that don’t favor, break or go completely unused by the other playstyle is always going to be a challenge. I would love for them to work out how to do this well, however I suspect that as long these two playstyles need to be catered to on a single tree, we’ll continue to get generic Holy Shock talents and tier sets as that’s the easiest solution.

If you have ideas on how they would fix it, or have comments on these ideas I’ve listed, please share them, it’s a topic that is really interesting.

6 Likes

Good. I wanted Holy Power removed, but just never having to worry about it is the next best thing.

4 Likes

hahah so just delete the Holy Power WeakAura and pretend it doesn’t exist. :joy:

1 Like

Sorry for being snarky. I went and read the whole article and their points make sense to me. I think it might work better the way they suggested, just ignoring holy power and waiting for two Blessing of Dawn stacks. Or maybe they could adjust talents to let us use up to a total of 5 Holy Power (the whole bar) all at once for added effect. That would sort of maintain the idea of building to a big spender, without making us reliant on those big spenders for our whole rotation the way it was before the rework.

I think giving spenders an added effect like this could go a long way to making them useful. I feel like it just felt BAD when our builders were weak and our healing depended on having holy power to spend when you needed it, so I don’t want spenders to be needed for healing throughput if possible, but it would be cool if spenders were used for utility or added options. “Paladin Support Spec” is way out of the scope of the thread, but in the same way that many Augvoker abilities add to the duration of Ebon Might, it might be cool if HP spenders increased buff durations or had other effects. Something like, “Word of Glory adds 1 or 2 seconds to any paladin blessing currently active on the target,” in order to extend Sacrifice or Freedom or something.

Waaaaay out on a limb here, and would not happen outside of (another) rework or big shuffle due to new expansion or something, but it might be neat if spenders were completely decoupled from healing entirely, and instead we had a Single-Target spender and an AOE Spender which applied the effects of Seals to our targets. Like having Seal of Sacrifice active on yourself, and casting the AOE spender would redirect 10% of incoming damage on 5 party members to you for a few seconds, or the Single-Target spender would basically work like Blessing of Sacrifice does now. I haven’t thought it through deeply.

I do think Holy Power could still be neat, but I just absolutely hated depending on it for healing throughput, and don’t want to go back.

beat the designer

don’t be reliant on the tier set effects
don’t be reliant on mainstream/meta
take advantage of the crafting system and build your attributes to min max ur own style :3

on other hands, all these changes doesn’t really affect me much since i left off at the end of draenor as a holy pal, the current state plays like the old ways, and if u want reasonable changes to make spender a lil stronger = think of it like the old “eternal flame” which is in this game already but in protection spec and now called “Light of the Titan.” oh well, i am more worried about the mana management nerf for all the healers in up coming major patch LOL. usually, i built base on mana management, the more mana u have the more heal u can throw at everyone.

I think they could keep holy power but not for healing but for Damage and Mana Restore.
-Divine Plea: Restore x mana per Holy Power. Cost 3-6 HP. x sec cd.

-Exorcism: deals aoe damage and drops Consecration. Cost 3 HP and restores x mana. Make it like Light’s Hammer as in placeable.

-Holy Wrath: Single Target. Cost 3 HP and restores some mana

-Every x Holy Power used lowers the cd of LoD and WoG by x secs. Maybe? or lower cd by using infusions for LoD or WoG.

-Holy Power capped at 6 maybe

Adjustments for people who don’t really like Glimmer of Light spread playstyle

-Daybreak has different effect based on if you have Illumination or Blessed Focus. No longer restores mana.
Illumination is current Daybreakand Blessed Focus makes your next Holy Shock heal 5- 6 injured allies within 20-30 yards.

-Rising Sunlight: works the same for Illumination but Blessed Focus makes your next 3 Holy Shocks do the Daybreak effect

Needs some revision for button bloat.

Ideally we would see denounce added to the spec tree so we can opt into a ranged spending option for damage (or for people who have a 2h healing weapon).

Imo I think holy power needs to take some Cataclysm inspiration with the range of HP a spell can consume for output. I’d love to see all of the spec spenders be able to consume 3-5 HP for increased damage/healing/duration on armor buff. This could let light of dawn do some real healing with proper tuning as well.

Mobile posting so I can’t quote them but the above poster referencing non-damage/healing consumers for HP could be interesting as well tbh.

1 Like

We don’t need a ranged spender.

We’re classified as melee and by allowing a ranged spender it would encourage people to stay ranged which would 1.) go against the design philosophy of the class and 2.) mess up certain fights if a mechanic is intended for melee and the paladin gets targeted by it and is with the range group.

You should always be within 8y of any given enemy to do any meaningful damage.

We already have a ranged damage spender, it’s just locked as a pvp talent. The option to cast at range should be more broadly available to holy paladins (like in a raiding environment to have a better mastery spread since our beacons are on the tanks). It’d easily go on a choice node with shining righteousness as well.

Also they’d hopefully fix SOTR to work with 2h weapons if they’re going to insist on adding them to the hpal loot pool.

2 Likes

For me it breaks down to pretty much this: (which seems like a lot, but meh)

Ability Bloat

Holy Shock, Holy Light and Flash of Light

  • Holy Shock’s cooldown needs to be increased, reduced by talents later in the tree.
  • Flash of Light needs to be removed.
    • Having both FoL and Holy Light just feels dated, especially with Holy Power Spenders
  • Holy Light’s cast time reduced by 1 sec.

Consecration, Light’s Hammer and Holy Prism

  • Holy Prism needs to be removed.

  • Light’s Hammer now replaces Consecration, with a 20 sec cooldown.

  • Righteous Judgement replaces Consecration, and now gives your Judgement ability a 100% chance to drop a Consecration at the location.

  • Light’s Hammer and Righteous Judgement now share a choice node.

Vanguard’s Momentum and Empyrean Legacy

  • Empyrean Legacy needs to be removed.
  • Vanguard’s Momentum needs to be redesigned.

Vanguard’s Momentum
20 sec recharge - Replaces Hammer of Wrath
Throws a magical hammer at your target dealing X damage, and empowering your next Word of Glory to automatically trigger Light of Dawn with Y% increased effectiveness.

  • This effect is doubled when used on a mob below 20% health.

Holy Power Spenders

  • Holy Power Spenders have been taken off the GCD.
  • Crusader’s Reprieve now also increases the range of Shield of the Righteousness to 8 yards, in addition to it’s current effects.
  • Light of Dawn needs to be removed as an active ability and shifted to a proc based spell. (See above)
  • New Talent Added: Holy Radiance.

Holy Radiance
3 Holy Power - Instant
Imbues a friendly target with radiant energy, healing that target for X and all allies within 15 yards for Y.

Talent Tree Clean up

  • Tirion’s Devotion needs to be removed
  • Afterimage (Class Talent) needs to be removed.
  • Breaking Dawn needs to be removed.
  • New Talent in Class Tree: Healing Hands has been added to the Class Tree for both Holy and Prot specializations.
  • Unwavering Spirit and Protection of Tyr moved to Tirion’s Devotion’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Daybreak moved to Unwavering Spirit’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Rising Sunlight moved to Power of the Silver Hand’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Beacon of Faith and Beacon of Virtue moved to Breaking Dawn’s Location in the Holy Tree.
  • Power of the Silver Hand then needs to be changed to be more melee centric, along with a few open talent spots for some additional melee healer perks.
  • Avenging Crusader and Sanctified Wrath need to share a choice node.
  • Sanctified Wrath now reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock passively along with it’s current effects.
    • Talents adjusted as needed.
  • Avenging Wrath: Might and Awakening need to share a choice node.
    • Talents adjusted as needed.

So basically it would end up looking like this:

Imgur

3 Likes

Pretty interesting ideas.

  • Light’s Hammer now replaces Consecration, with a 20 sec cooldown.
  • Righteous Judgement replaces Consecration, and now gives your Judgement ability a 100% chance to drop a Consecration at the location.

I love this idea. Removing button bloat via something like this would be nice! Why Holy still has this drop consecration every 7-12 seconds is ridiculous.

What’s the reason behind this? I think that could be rather OP to be the only healer with off the GCD heals like that.

  • New Talent Added: Holy Radiance.

idk about this. An AOE heal around a friendly player can also be pretty annoying. If you’ve ever played Presvoker, casting Emerald Blossom around a friendly who’s chosen to stand in the middle of nowhere is a pain.

  • Daybreak moved to Unwavering Spirit’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Rising Sunlight moved to Power of the Silver Hand’s location in the Holy Tree.

I like this. A more central part of the tree for what is a core requirement of the spec at this point. Having Rising Sunlight compete with other points in this middle part of the tree is a bit imbalanced though.

1 Like

I like holy pally but to think there will be any changes is laughable. They just got a rework and in 10.2 receiving a nerf. Blizzard doesn’t only think they are fine, but overturned.

Holy Power spenders heal for very little, and it may be very possible that we may end up ignoring them in 10.2, or very lowly prioritizing them.

Removing them from the GCD makes them “little bonuses” that you can quickly weave into your rotation so that it feels like a bonus without having to over buff them to compete in output.

While it’s not 100% ideal, the idea of LoD being a frontal cone that always hits you, even when you’re at full health, has been annoying for quite a bit of players.

A system like this would always allow you to macro the ability to cast on yourself, and treat it very similar to how LoD correctly works, with just a little more flexibility due to the 360 radius.

Shadow Priest get changed on a patch basis and Warlocks just not near as often as Shadow. From talent swaps to new talents, iterations etc.

We are not asking for buffs but for some kinda clean-up which I hope will happen at least during beta of next xpac.

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I think you’re onto something here. With Holy Shock where it is now, two charges and constantly refreshing, it feels like it’s taken the place of a filler spell for us. I could see FoL or HL being removed and the other being adjusted, in the same way Druids lost Healing Touch way back when.

I like the idea of a choice node to replace Consecration with either Light’s Hammer or Righteous Judgement. Lets you decide if you want a bigger, stronger ability that you have to be more careful about placing, or an automatic ability that has weaker performance but less chance of messing it up. If Righteous Judgement kept the internal cooldown that Retribution’s version has, I think it could be balanced. Also I hate Holy Prism.

If EL were replaced and made into an active ability, we may as well just call it Vanquisher’s Hammer and be done with it, since that was the covenant ability it was based on. Could also be used for the other specs too.

Yeah, I loved Vanquisher’s Hammer in SL, I just didn’t want it to be associated with being a different ability and kindof working against the button bloat.

I just want it to be an empowered Hammer of Wrath that could be used regardless of enemy health, but still feel powerful when below 20%.

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That makes sense. Hammer of Wrath is kind of a weird vestigial ability at this point anyway, especially for Holy. I think existing Vanguard’s Momentum would probably be pretty useful in a raid environment, especially when paired with Veneration, but they’re just not good enough to justify skipping other talents (especially if it means investing two points in Seal of the Crusader, what was blizzard thinking with that?)

Yeah, the class tree has been a mess, but the work they did on Ret and Holy shows that there is hope for it yet, lol.

I figured with Veneration and making Vanguard’s focus on providing a LoD proc, it could be beneficial as more of a melee centric class talent, which would make SotC little more valuable, but all “Seal of the _____” talents need to be redesigned.

If there was one version of wings that made judgement and crusader strike heal targets with glimmer, and the other version of wings making holy/flash light, splash heal targets with glimmer then surround talents could support those two styles - a melee and a ranged style

Holy paladin needs a playstyle that is more rewarding when performed correctly. Besides maintaining max glimmers there isn’t much to think about in the rotation currently.

What if damage transferred with Blessing of sacrifice provides some type of boost, meaning using it on the right target at the right time would improve your HPS somehow

What if glimmer instead, added a shield based on damage done with crusader strike and judgment. That would shift the play style a little more into doing damage instead of the passive benefit that comes from maintaining multiple glimmers as you cast a holy shock.
What if instead of a shield it was ramping damage mitigation, based on damage done, for a short moment.

For a melee healer casting flash and holy light feels bad reactively, what if instead, you spending the time casting predictively, to either shield, add DMG mitigation, or even add a mini beacon for say, 6 seconds.

Actually casting in general just sucks on paladin, taking inspiration from the last idea what if you had a spell with say three charges to instantly apply a 6-second beacon on a given target. Or just reduce the mana cost on beacon of virtue, it’s unreal how much it drains your mana to choose that talent

It’s just a bummer that with the current talents all of the ones that are meta predominantly just flat boost to the rotation instead of providing engaging decision making during the rotation.

I was probably out of wow by the time this was initially written and didn’t run into this until now.

But,oh lord christ, how accurate it was. Almost 3 months later, and not only this more relevant han ever, but it has been for all of S3.

By far one of the most well written post here, and one of the most accurate. I really hope devs read this.

Update: as a note, the writer from wowhead says the following:

“But cant Blizzard just buff Word of Glory to restore the balance?”
“In a vacuum, this is definitely a possibility. But Holy Paladin and Word of Glory does not exist in a vacuum. Firstly, just buffing Word of Glory without buffing Light of Dawn would push it too far ahead that you would just never cast Light of Dawn again and buffing Light of Dawn would go against the renewed focus on spot healing, secondly if you buff spenders then that would just be an unwarranted buff to Holy Paladin in general** which would disturb the over all healer balance.”**

With how the meta settled and how the specs are performing, this is actually a valid solution nowadays. The buff can now be arguably justified.