It would be silly to assume that the human kingdoms just lived peacefully amongst one another for thousands of years and never fought each other for territory, wealth, resources, honor, or a plethora of other reasons that medieval kingdoms/empires fought one another in the real world.
It would, because they have fought each other. Stromgarde and Alterac waged war against each other multiple times.
Before the coming of the orcs, the human kingdoms of Lordaeron faced challenges and obstacles from each other as the games of politics played out.[10] Amidst those nations, there were no two rivals like Alterac and Stromgarde. The proximity of the two and the apparent ambiguity of their mountain borders had led to several wars and skirmishes. On more than one occasion, King Thoras Trollbane led the armies of Stromgarde into battle against the honorable General Hath of Alterac.[11] The tension of their repeated discord was noticeable at the Alliance summit as Perenolde glared at Trollbane.[12] It is conceivable that this discord had alienated Alterac and its leader from the other Alliance nations who had positive relations with Trollbane. This alienation, in turn, would contribute to Perenoldeâs willingness to turn on those allies midway through the Second War.
Very interesting. I actually wasnât aware that Stromgarde and Alterac actually fighting one another before the Second War was canon. I like that you cited the Tides of Darkness book, Iâd like to read it sometime.
But I wish we had more pre-First War history written down for the human kingdoms. Thereâs just so much potential there. One area in particular is Hillsbrad Foothills. Given the borders of the rest of Lordaeronâs territory before itâs fall, Hillsbrad is quite physically disconnected from the rest of the kingdom. I like to imagine that, as a major crossroads between Gilneas, Lordaeron, Dalaran, Alterac and Stromgarde, those five kingdoms frequently fought one another to control the area over the generations (although I donât really see pre-Second War Dalaran as an expansionist power, more isolationist).
We need more lore that covers interactions between the human kingdoms (as well as the high elves, dwarves and gnomes) before the events of the Warcraft games.
If the night elves choose to abandon Kalimdor, thatâs their decision to do so. The Forsaken are obviously deciding to stay put.
That doesnât make sense. That would include the capitol itself.
One thing that would make this whole thing interesting is if Gilneas and Stromgarde went and started fighting over who gets to own Southshore. That kind of squabbling would make it less of a Horde vs Alliance thing and more of a âGame of Thronesâ style kerfuffle.
They can certainly touch on it, but letâs not allow things to be turned into âWorld of Humancraftâ. Itâs clear that Blizzard is only willing to budget so much into story telling and too deep of a dive into human kingdoms playing politics would take away from others.
Call me bias, but Iâd much rather see some orc development.
I think Gilneas and Stromgarde squabbling over the ownership of Southshore/Hillsbrad could make for some interesting political tension within the Alliance, which is desperately needed since the faction has forever been unified under the Wrynns and no one ever has any disagreements, grievances, or problems with one another. At least it doesnât happen to the point that the situation causes trouble for the Alliance at large, or bring the faction to civil war like weâve seen with the Horde many times now.
Human kingdoms donât need fixing. Dalaran, Stromgarde, Stormwind and Kul Tiras are in the rise. If Blizzardâs wants to treat the community repair the horrible situation Orcs and trolls are currently in. These races are on the brink of extinction.
Hereâs another idea. The Alliance should leave both the Forsaken and Lordaeron alone.
Agreed. The Forsaken and the Argent Crusade relatively co-existing in Lordaeron proves that the Forsaken can get along with humans and not attack them⌠because the Argents have consistently stood by the Forsaken time and time again, dedicated to their neutrality.
I donât know, man. A change of from the usual approach to the Horde vs Alliance herp a derp sounds pretty appealing to me.
Also agreed; itâd be nice to see Alliance internal conflict.
Never considering the living survivors of Lordaeron who for the most part are with the Alliance have as much right to it as the Forsaken.
And this sound as nonsensical as anything else. Southshore is an Alliance protectorate. And both Stormgarde and Gilneas do not even have claims to it, not to mention both leaders of these nations are die hard Alliance supporters.
Never considering the living survivors of Lordaeron who for the most part are with the Alliance have as much right to it as the Forsaken.
If youâre confirming that the Forsaken do have legitimate right to Lordaeron by comparing their right to the fallen kingdom to Lordaeronâs living survivors, why propose the idea of them leaving Lordaeron and going to Northrend?
I think the point of the suggestion is to introduce some of that political squabbling people say is supposed to be so compelling about the pre-WC1 human kingdoms. Southshore may as well be viewed as spoils of war, so Gilneas and Arathi could bicker over who gets to own it as a land and power grab.
The last member of the royal house joined the Forsaken. I hate this as much as you do but right now there is no Lordaeron nobility left alive who could represent the humans who fled. As I am sure Turalyon was just a priest before becoming the commander.
The only potential candidate the Alliance may have would be Caliaâs daughter⌠who has not been introduced in the game yet as a character, so we donât know if sheâd even be Alliance or not.
Alright so regarding the Horde-aligned (or at least Horde-leaning) Alterac thing, I wanted to let you guys know where Iâm coming from.
First, why revive Alterac ? Because it has been given close to zero lore for 20 years, and what little we know raises more questions that it answers. Alterac is basically a scrapped concept at this point, except it isnât because itâs canon. And yet itâs a very interesting kingdom : it was a very weak and likely secluded mountain nation, and because of that, it didnât react to the Hordeâs invasion in the same way as the others. Due to its very poor (yet understandable) decision to betray the Human kingdoms, it has been shunned and excluded from that glorious Alliance history that binds nearly the entire Human race together. Itâs the ugly ducking of Humanity. This is extremely interesting thematically : so far Warcraft has strictly sticked to the âHistory is written by the victorsâ trope, and exploring the Alteraci perspective would equal exploring the losersâ perspective, which is something thatâs sorely needed.
Unlike Lordaeron, Alterac didnât get a proper closure, it didnât get its own arc (whether youâre satisfied with how Lordaeronâs arc ended is another question), and the question of its legacy has never been addressed. Thatâs why it needs to come back.
Second, why should Alterac ally with the Horde ? Besides the reasons I gave in my first post, Iâd like to expand on what the Horde is as a faction. Itâs often been described as a âa collection of outcasts fighting against a hostile worldâ, but I think itâs a bit more subtle than that. I think the unifying theme of the Horde is the following : âGroups and races that have lost their place in the world for a variety of reasons (diaspora people whose homeland was lost, population shunned for having done some very questionable things, declining/shattered nation that used to be a major powerâŚ) and who are seeking to reclaim that place, or build themselves a new one, through new bonds and a reformed identityâ. This applies to a vast majority of the Horde races (if not all of them) : they looked at their present situation, found that they were kinda screwed, and went âOkay, what now ?â. This is what the Horde is about. And Iâve got to say, Alterac COMPLETELY fits this.
Also, making them Horde-aligned would show that 1) Humans arenât a monolith, and that 2) the choice of the faction is less a matter of race than a matter of history, culture, values and philosophy. I think that latter is very important, and also paves the way for the upcoming Yrel narrative with the Lightbound Orcs : that way Alliance-aligned Orcs and Horde-aligned Humans would be a reality, and be done in a way that truly makes sense (they wouldnât necessarily have to be playable though).
Alterac freaking hates the Alliance, and the Alliance freaking hates Alterac. You could argue that Alterac likely hates the Horde as well ; however that would be way less of a problem, because the Horde has a historical tendency of bringing former sworn ennemies to band together : Orcs and (undead) Humans, Forest Trolls and Blood Elves, Pandaren/Goblins and Zandalari, etc etc.
To make things clear, I do NOT think Lordaeron should be reborn. I donât. I agree with you, it is absolutely dead as a kingdom, and should remain dead. Iâm not a ârevive everythingâ person, I think leaving some things dead is great because that way the story truly matters, and it makes the present state of the world the visible consequence of the course of events.
What Iâm saying, however, is that Lordaeron was a very important part of the Human culture and civilization, and as such some groups should seek to claim themselves as its heirs (something the Forsaken donât actually do, which is amazing) and keep its legacy going. Thatâs what Theramore was, and it was a great way to do so, but Theramore was disposed of for the needs of yet another Horde villain-batting arc, while it had so much potential narratively. So Iâm saying, either revive Theramore as a kingdom of survivors and war orphans, or develop another Lordaeron-related org thatâd give the Lordaeron fantasy an anchor point within the Alliance. There are many other ways it could be done, Iâm just exploring some possibilities. Durthu and others mentioned Stratholme for example. That could work just fine.
(I donât want to dive into the old âreclaim the Capital City from the Forsakenâ discussion, because again, to me, thatâs a settled question. The Forsaken get to decide with to do with their lands, with their legacy, and thereâs no retaking the Undercity for the Alliance. That ship has long sailed, and thatâs very good)
Though Iâm in favor of Dalaran remaining mostly neutral, I definitely agree with that. The High Elves should definitely have a proper, well-established home within the Alliance. Again, rebuilding Theramore would probably be a great way to give them just that
From an in-universe standpoint, Human kingdoms are doing okay, probably the best theyâve been doing for a while actually. But their lore (or lack thereof) sucks though. Itâs been historically hijacked by Stormwind lore, and Stormwind lore has been historically hijacked by Wrynn lore⌠and Wrynn lore sucks. So the point of that thread was to give some ideas as to what could be done to make Human lore more diversified and interesting
(Of course Trolls and Orcs need a lot of fixing as well, and Iâll glady post in the threat you just made)
Four way succession crisis between reintroduced DK Aiden Parnolde, Gilneas supported Isiden Parnolde, independent Jarrod Raveholt, and Scarlet Remanent Twinblades!
Strom 100% deserves a more early modern Scandanavian feeling given their history and intrigue from Thoradin and his followers that is almost in conflict between the modern Alliance, the focus on the Church of the Holy Light, and the âold waysâ that people vaguely remember from their vrykrul lineage.
Hmm⌠so the kaldorei would give up their position in Kalimdor in return? Is this your proposal? Are you willing to give an entire continent to forsakens plus a Horde empire in Kalimdor for Lordaeron? And can the Forsaken claim Icecrown Citadel as well?
In fact I think this is a great idea, if I were Warchief of the Horde I would agree to these terms on the spot. And Zerde would be declared the greatest diplomat in the history of the Alliance.
Yes, Zerdeâs diplomatic skills are unparalleled in human history. And of course this new Undead super empire would be peace loving, and would never think of invading the new kingdom of Lordaeron 2.0 just for the lulz.
The Alliance would have Zerde ready to lead an expedition to the frozen continent to negotiate with our new Lich King peace terms between the Forsaken and Lordaeron.
I do like there being some Light worship in Stromgarde, but honestly the more i think about it the more i like the idea of Stormgarde being connected to the âold ways.â Either by worshipping other Gods/Wild Gods/Loas or that somehow their sect of the Light Worship ties into the Old Ways. A seperate sect of the light that was not practiced in Stormwind or Lordaeron. I also like the idea of them being the one human kingdom to use Warpaint. Especially for their Warriors and Troll Hunters.
Technically they lost their capital, Teldrassil. Which had both their capital/starting zone. Horde fans keep harping about how unfair it is we keep our leaders and yet the Forsaken are no worse for wear after BfA.
Honestly, let them. Why would the Alliance care one bit about that cursed place? Again, for low price of Tirisfal glades and Silverpine(and Tarren Mill and maybe Alterac) the Horde can have all of Northrend for all I care.
No, because the Forsaken are not trading a continent. All they have are two Zone of the eastern Kingdoms. And for that I wouldnt care if we get it and Horde can have all of Northrend(well maybe minus Stormpeaks but the Keeper probably wouldnt let them near it)
