Fixing Human kingdoms

Lore Story Forum
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Human kingdoms are cool. Please fix them. Here is what I think would be nice :

  • Stormwind : Wayyy too bland, needs to have a flavor and an identity of its own besides being the Official Wrynn Fan Club. Write it as the rural kingdom it should always have been, the bread basket of the Alliance basically, whose many farmers are getting increasingly mad at the corrupt local landlords. Explore the differences between the commoners (farmers, stonemasons) and the capital’s urban nobility. Anduin is pure narrative poison—keep him away from the Alliance. Use Turalyon as an opportunity to write a more pragmatic Alliance, one less concerned with being the moral backbone of Azeroth and more focused on furthering its own agenda and expanding its influence. Do not villain-bat Turalyon though. Enough of that.

  • Gilneas : Let them effectively reclaim their capital and their lands. Everybody loves them because they have a very strong identity, being that old-fashioned, isolationist Victorian Gothic-themed seafaring kingdom, so capitalize on that. Tell the story of how the Worgen curse brought them to reconnect with their old “pagan” ways, meaning the Harvest Witches ; make the Harvest Witches actively participate in the reconstruction of the kingdom by having them cleanse and fertilize the lands so that crops can grow again. Give us some actual relevant Gilnean characters besides Genn. Maybe try to fit these guys in : https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bradensbrook. Expand on the affinity between Gilneans and Kaldorei and show how they formed their own axis within the Alliance. Also, address the fate of the Bloodfang pack : must they keep living separately from Genn’s Gilneans, are they just too far gone to live in harmony with them under the same banner ? Or is there room within the new Gilnean society for those who decided to fully embrace the curse ?

  • Lordaeron : Definitely gone for good as a kingdom. Some Alliance-aligned organizations and subgroups could and should try to revive and uphold its legacy though. For example, Turalyon could strike an uneasy alliance with the Scarlet Brotherhood (precedents do exist : that’s what happened with the Scarlet Renegades, the Bloodfang pack and even the Grimtotem tribe), if only so that they stop spreading hostile propaganda, and more generally, to keep them in check. That way, the Alliance would gain access to New Hearthglen, their base of operations, and enjoy a neo-Lordaeron revival. Alternatively… ↓

  • Theramore : Definitely revive Theramore. Use the Sullied Banner DF questline as a way to address the need for a “kingdom for the kingdomless” ; Theramore fits this perfectly. Establish it as a multiracial kingdom made up of refugees and war orphans of all sorts, while still stressing its dual Lordaeronian and Kul Tiran legacy. Maybe make it part of the Human axis that’s more antagonistic towards the Horde, alongside Stromgarde and Gilneas. Jaina leads the Admiralty of Kul Tiras now, so someone else has to be in charge ; what about Sky Admiral Catherine Rodgers ? https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sky_Admiral_Rogers

  • Kul Tiras : Get the different Houses back in shape, and address the fate of House Ashvane in particular—what to do with it now ? Explore their connection to the Drust : tell the story of how they colonized the island as a Gilnean expedition, clearly confirm that many Kul Tirans are Human-Drust hybrids, give the Thornspeakers some proper focus (please don’t just blend them into the Cenarion Circle). Show how much they diverged from the mainland Human kingdoms culturally over the years : explore the Tidesages and the cult of the Tidemother (without necessarily lifting the veil on her exact identity ! Mystery is good and so little is left in WoW). Show how the Admiralty is dealing with piracy. Rebuild the fleet. Maybe tell a story about the remnants of Old God influence in Stormsong and how these may be of interest to the Ren’dorei, who may use it as an opportunity to establish their first proper settlement in Azeroth (!)

  • Stromgarde : Was reestablished as a proper kingdom in BfA, has tons of potential and is BEGGING for some focus. Don’t make them a vassal state of Stormwind. Write them as the militaristic kingdom as opposed to Stormwind’s population of farmers, maybe give them Roman or Spartan inspirations. Come up with some brand new shiny Stromic characters, and introduce us to Danath’s heir/heiress, if there is any. See if their religious practice differs in any way from the Stormwindian Church of the Holy Light. FINALLY turn Stromgarde Keep into a vibrant Alliance city and player hub.

  • Dalaran : It’s all good I believe ? Expand on their loyalties and geopolitical positioning I guess. Maybe give it a permanent spot in Azeroth to float over lol

  • Alterac : Oh boy. Revive Alterac. Tell us what happened to its people after the kingdom was dismantled. Here is my take on it : some joined the Syndicate, some joined various other orgs like Ravenholdt, some found refuge in Stormwind ; however, after some time, many of these people collectively felt the need to reform their broken kingdom for various reasons (the refugees in SW were being ostracized due to their kingdom’s actions during the Second War, and the Syndicate had clearly reached a dead end, having lost most of its territory and being hated by pretty much everyone). Give them RL German/Swiss/Austrian inspirations as to the naming convention, architecture and overall culture. Depict how years of wandering, shunning, poverty and banditry impacted their mindset and their culture. Reestablish them in their old capital, and make them strike an alliance with the Horde (one of those “uneasy alliance of convenience” the Horde is so accustomed too), solidifying Alterac Valley as Horde territory. There are many reasons as to why this could and, imho, should happen : 1) Alterac needs allies to survive but everyone hates their guts, and the Horde is historically prone to ally with outcasts and shunned nations ; 2) the Horde currently controls Strahnbrad and Alterac City, so the Alteraci would be forced to negotiate with them ; 3) the Alteraci are obviously extremely bitter towards the Alliance, and would see the value in allying with the Horde if they ever want to get their revenge against them ; 4) Alterac and the Horde were allied during the Second War, meaning they have some sort historical connection. Sure, this ended up being a terrible idea for Alterac and the Old Horde treated them very poorly, but the New Horde may prove itself more tolerable allies, even though both sides would obviously be very wary of one another ; 5) Horde-aligned Humans would be such a cool change of pace, and overall, Alterac just feels Horde-like somehow.

  • Morgan’s kingdom : Hey, seriously. What’s up with this ? https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Morgan%27s_Militia Who is this girl ? This is so cool and fascinating. A kingdom in the middle of the Burning Steppes ! Resume that plotline !!!

Thoughts ?

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i think I said before, but what gives a king his claim?

if hes chosen by the light (irl kings are meant to be chosen by god), couldnt a lightforged draenei claim the throne?
like i never understood why the king rules and i doubt blizz thought about it after draenei came from space wielding the same religion

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I’m certain that there are legal documents laying around somewhere discussion matters of succession, but ultimately if you can kill enough people who don’t want you to be king that they give up, congrats. It helps if there is no actual current king; or if the current king has more enemies than friends.

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While the small kingdom can rest, Captain Winky’s existence could be explored. :dracthyr_sweat:

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I thought that finding Captain Winky was why Roger Podacter was killed?

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Not gone completely, just under new management. The undead running the show with Horde banners flying on the battlements, but that’s no reason to assume it’s “gone forever”. But then again, take a poll from the Forsaken and ask them if they think of it as “Lordaeron” or “Undercity”.

Keep it’s neutrality going first and foremost, then find someplace to put it permanantly.

Then delete it from Northrend and Broken Isles. Any and all Wrath or Legion questing that required Dalaran in their respective areas can become Feats of Strength achievements.

I C Wut U Did Thar

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The Forsaken are a brand new nation though, not New Lordaeron or anything like that. They are the heirs to Lordaeron in some important regards (their territorial claims, part of their racial composition, some very specific aspects of their culture) but they are something completely different. They certainly don’t identify as Lordaeronians and for the most part, they want nothing to do with it. Hence why I said it’s dead as a kingdom

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If there was a storyline with rebuilding Theramore, i’d like to see the island its on become a bit bigger. Maybe even remodel the city a bit to look similar to Lordaeron’s former capitol. A Lordaeron feel with a strong Kul Tiran influence there as well. If i remember correctly, Old Theramore had a council of 7 that served under Jaina. Maybe bring something like that back. You could also play up some kind of struggle of power between those who follow the Light and those who follow the Kul Tiran Tidemother religion.

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Stormwind needs to return to its brotherhood of the horse cavalry knights identity. Only thing it needs. Although i dont see that being utilized at all in the future of the lore as “lore” now is just the campaign of five key characters doing things. I dont think stormwind is bad aesthetically as is. Infact i think its only of the most iconic locations in the game. But only thing that needs fixing is how its represented in current lore.

Maybe axe and dismantle SI:7. Let another alliance race be the sneaky arm of the military. Have humans thing be back to diplomacy and footman. The numbers in terms of chucking dudes at a problem. Other alliance races are better specialists.

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Thinking about this more I think its fine to keep some of the kingdoms dead and gone. With the exception of gilneas which should rebound, and kul tiras which is fine currently. It might be suprising from a human paladin player but i think lordaeron should truely stay dead. It was cool but its far past time to let go.

Part of what I loved about the eastern kingdoms in classic and what I still love is how forlorn and on the brink it felt. With stormwind being so stretched thin and in dire straights in its questlines around it. Being in a place like Hillsbrad for example, despite being in the EK still felt very far from home and unsafe. Even with southshore right there and little towns between the ruins of dalaran, lordaeron, arathor, and alterac. It felt at the edge of civilization and like it could be swallowed up at any moment.

I think its alright if a few of them stay dead. Times change.

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They have four of their current kingdoms back in Alliance hands officially. If you count neutral kingdoms, you have five. That’s enough, IMO. Demanding that Lordaeron be switched from Horde to Alliance is just being greedy.

Alterac just seems a waste. It was the weakest human kingdom and nobody liked them when they were still active. Even if the humans got their best wishes granted and all the kingdoms restored, I imagine Alterac’s lands getting absorbed into Lordaeron, Gilneas, or Stromgarde. Quite frankly it’s better off left in the care of the Frostwolf Clan.

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This ^^ Anduin must secretly be a warlock because he uses ‘drain life’ on every story he’s in, turning it into a dry and lifeless husk. He needs a long, long break from the setting.

Please Blizzard. Turalyon is one of the most interesting human characters we’ve had in a long time. Plus he’s from the Warcraft 2 era and the leader of the Sons of Lothar before he and Alleria got separated from the others when Outland imploded. Please have him do something besides just sit in Stormwind Keep; he’s done nothing since the Stromgarde warfront in BFA.

Other than that, I agree with all your points about Stormwind. The kingdom desperately needs different themes besides just the Wrynn family and armies of faceless footmen.

Agree with everything you say about Gilneas. Keep up with their Gothic Victorian England feel and expand on it.

I know someone else said it in my thread about the state of Alliance lore, but I’ll rehash it here so other’s can see. I concede that the Alliance should not take Capital City from the Forsaken; even if we tried, we’d be humiliated in battle like in BFA. Let the Forsaken keep Capital City, but let the Alliance revive Lordaeron partially with a city like Stratholme, Tyr’s Hand or even Hearthglen as its new capital. Lordaeron is such a core part of Alliance history, it should not be 100% given over to the Forsaken.

I agree. Theramore’s destruction was stupid and unnecessary, and just felt like a massive middle finger to the Alliance. It also destroyed one of the Alliance’s last ties to Lordaeron, as a significant chunk of the population that crossed the sea with Jaina to Kalimdor in Warcraft 3 was from Lordaeron. Theramore coming back either as a colony of Kul Tiras or a new entirely independent human kingdom would be very interesting.

Agree with all your points about Kul Tiras. It’s already the most developed and interesting human kingdom in the setting, but Blizzard should keep going with the 18th/19th century British Empire theme and aesthetic.

Stromgarde is my favorite human kingdom; I always viewed them as having Greco-Roman and Celtic influence with the highland/Braveheart theme. Agree with all your points here too.

I agree Dalaran should stop floating around Azeroth every xpac and find a fixed permanent place. However, I dislike that magi from both factions are represented by the Kirin Tor. Shoving every Horde mage into the Kirin Tor does a massive disservice to the Horde. Give the Kirin Tor back to the Alliance to be their mage order and Dalaran an Alliance city, but give the Horde their own mage order. As a long time Alliance player, knowing Dalaran’s history but Dalaran being perpetually neutral except for a short period in MoP is irritating. After the Sunreavers betrayed the Kirin Tor several times, it makes no sense that the Horde aren’t completely banned from visiting Dalaran. If Blizzard won’t have Dalaran rejoin the Alliance, then it should be destroyed to stop homogenizing all magi on Azeroth under a neutral mage order. Another point is that Dalaran was/is a home away from Quel’thalas for the high elves. Without Dalaran or a new settlement being built for them, high elves in the Alliance have no place to call their own.

I don’t think a revived Alterac should go to the Horde 100%. Rather, like my point about Lordaeron, it should be split. Have the Forsaken control part of it and the Alliance the other. Alterac could be a good point of tension between the Forsaken and the reborn kingdom of Stromgarde. Thoras Trollbane, the last king of Stromgarde before it’s fall, claimed the lands of Alterac for his kingdom after the Second War. Danath as the new king could press Thoras’ old claims to expand his kingdom.

Eh… a human kingdom in the Burning Steppes doesn’t make sense to me, even if it was part of Stormwind. If the Burning Steppes should go to anybody, it should go to either the remnants of the Dark Horde (if any of them are even still alive at this point) or the Dark Iron dwarf clan.

Overall, I agree with the vast majority of your points. The human kingdoms, especially Stormwind, desperately need some developments in regards to their culture, government style, faith/religion, military, etc.

Another point I wish I had made in my thread was the lack of feudal nobility in the nations of humanity. Kul Tiras rectified this a bit, but for all the nobles we see in Stormwind and Gilneas, we know nothing about the lands they rule. No baronies, counties, duchies, or other types of medieval fiefdoms are represented in game or lore. I can think of a few NPCs would could rule certain lands as nobles: Gryan Stoutmantle should be made Duke of Westfall, Sarah Ladimore could be Lady of Darkshire/Grand Hamlet (which was the name of the town before the land was corrupted), and John J. Keeshan (although he’s not as good of a character as I wish he was) could be Lord of Redridge. Have the nobles actually BE nobles.

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It was the weakest at the time of the Second War, but I remember seeing somewhere that at one point it actually was the strongest human kingdom. I can imagine why: being as centrally located as Alterac is, I like to imagine the kingdom was insanely wealthy from trade between the kingdoms and used that wealth to raise powerful armies, maybe even mercenary armies instead of a standing army made up of its own people to make Alterac a bit more unique. I don’t think Alterac would be a waste: look at my recent reply to OP about what I think should be done with the kingdom if it was ever brought back.

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Honestly, the Forsaken should have moved to Northrend. I wouldn’t care bit if the entire continent went to them and we got back Lordearon. Hell, maybe make Naxx their new capital.

In anycase, Lordaeron future is still not decided. Even if the Alliance were never to get back Capital City, it could still try to take back everything up to Ambermill(which is Dalaran land that sided with the Alliance) and take back most of the Western/Eastern Plaguelands.

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You will not get the eastern kingdoms fully blue. Stop dreaming unreasonable demands.

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Wouldnt it be nice if all Horde veterans from the second war would be alive still?

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I’m curious how they managed to fall to being the weakest then.

The relationships between the human kingdoms before the Dark Portal was opened was supposedly very “Game of Thrones”. Alliances forming and breaking, wars happening, assassinations, etc. I can see either the Perenolde family or someone before botching things up and letting the kingdom decline, or the surrounding kingdoms of Gilneas, Lordaeron, and Stromgarde picking at it like wolves on a sick cow.

Or both.

It depends on how well the Forsaken can re-establish themselves in places like Tarren Mill or western Hillsbrad. If they can manage that while Greymane is trying to re-establish himself within his big wall and while Trollbane is getting his kingdom secured on the other side of his big wall, then the Forsaken will be in a somewhat better negotiating position later on down the road.

Why would they? Alive or undead, they’re still citizens of Lordaeron who view that kingdom as their home. I don’t see why they should pack up and leave for some far northern frozen waste.

Maybe as far north as Fenris Isle. Those lands use to belong to Crowley up until the Greymane Wall was built. I imagine him wanting them back eventually.

The Plaguelands are still up in the air. Above comments concerning the Forsaken and Tarren Mill also apply to places like Andorhal or maybe even Caer Darrow.

The problem is that at the same time Greymane wants to get re-established in Gilneas and Trollbane is getting Stromgarde back on its feet, the Forsaken are currently more focused on getting the Blight cleaned out of Lordaeron ruins.

Once everyone is done and start to look towards expansion though, it’ll be interesting to see who gets what.

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That’s another big problem of WoW lore: there are massive empty chunks of unexplained history. Between the Troll Wars and the First War, we know almost nothing about the history of the human nations besides the formation of the Arathor Empire under Thoradin and then his empire collapsing into the 7 human kingdoms. To explain why Alterac was so weak prior to/during the Second War, in my personal head canon, over time the human kingdoms waged war against one another, games of political intrigue were played, spy missions and assassinations carried out, the power of the individual kingdoms waxed and waned for many possible reasons, and territory changed hands several times until the borders solidified into what we saw prior to the First and Second Wars. Very Game of Thrones-esque like you said. It would be silly to assume that the human kingdoms just lived peacefully amongst one another for thousands of years and never fought each other for territory, wealth, resources, honor, or a plethora of other reasons that medieval kingdoms/empires fought one another in the real world.

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Same can be said of the night elves and yet their new capital somehow might end up being on the dragon isles.

His lands as far as I recall is the bottom half of Tirisfal glades.

Caer Darrow still belongs to the Scourge for whatever reason. In anycase with Southshore back in Alliance hands I expect Hillbrads to be contested again.

Its alot bluer then it was pre BfA that is for sure.

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Honestly, the Forsaken should have moved to Northrend. I wouldn’t care bit if the entire continent went to them and we got back Lordearon. Hell, maybe make Naxx their new capital.

The Forsaken are not the Scourge.

In anycase, Lordaeron future is still not decided. Even if the Alliance were never to get back Capital City, it could still try to take back everything up to Ambermill(which is Dalaran land that sided with the Alliance) and take back most of the Western/Eastern Plaguelands.

I’m down for the Alliance taking back Ambermill, but the Western/Eastern Plaguelands? Those lands are as of now controlled by the Argent Crusade, not the Alliance.

Well, a lot of it is anyway.

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