Fix reckoning and hand of justice

There’s several old pvp videos from back then showing that they are clearly wrong about how reckoning is supposed to function. Their ‘reference client’ (Im giving them the benefit of the doubt that they actually use one) isn’t correct.

“Go and check old pvp videos” is still not admissible as proof in the report bug section.

Then what else do we have to say that they are wrong if not the fact that the way reckoning is currently functioning after their changes is antithetical to how you play the game? You are constantly stopping your attacks by judging targets with judgement, swapping targets, getting cc’d…

Perhaps you can make an argument about the stacks being lost when you mount up, but even then I dont think that should have been done. I don’t believe you should lose them like that.

Im not kidding about what I said though. The only way reckoning is currently functional is if you let yourself get crit and never ever swing or judge or do anything until the moment you are certain you can attack without losing your stacks due to an interruption or something. You literally cant use judgement or auto attack or you will in 95% of cases lose your stacks of reckoning. How is this correct?

Here’s another thing. We were stopping our autos to not lose our attack timer attack when reckoning procs, because for whatever reason reckoning will use the stack of reckoning, resetting your attack timer; but you don’t get the attack timer hit. The only way to avoid this was to cancel your attack so you get a double hit with the attack timer hit and the reckoning stack(s)… but you know what that means now.

you lose your stacks of reckoning.

They’ve legitimately made a 25 talent point core talent completely useless.

I thought people didn’t want class balance changes. But clearly blizzard doesn’t care about that.

Is there anything Allies won’t cry about? They FIXED a super broken bug that was not intended, and NOT how it worked back in Vanilla.

Do you mean the multi hit extra hits bug that was happening with start/stop attack macros for sword spec, hand of justice, reckoning and other multi hit stuff? Or are you implying reckoning being functional was a bug?

Because if you aren’t talking about the extra hits bug… I’d like to see one of your core talents get absolutely gutted and made non functional.

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I wanted to take a moment to provide some clarification around what changed in 1.13.3 with Reckoning. There were several systemic issues with extra attack procs behaving incorrectly, which we fixed in the patch. A secondary effect of these fixes were two notable changes to Reckoning:

  1. Reckoning stacks are lost when you mount up.
  2. Reckoning stacks are lost when you initiate an auto-attack against a target and cancel it before it goes off.

However, both of these behaviors were correct behaviors in the 1.12 reference client and as such are considered bug fixes. Both of these issues have been added to the “Not A Bug” list.

This is from Blue Directly.


Yes, I know they’ve said that.

You haven’t played with reckoning. You don’t understand how completely and utterly dysfunctional it is now because of these changes.

This functionality seems in line with the designs back then. Rogues lost their combo points when switching targets.

I don’t believe rogues lose combo points when they stop their auto attacks though. Reckoning stacks drop if I stop my auto attacks. Which means I can’t start my auto attack until I’m certain I wont lose the stacks, and I cant use judgement either as that will make the stacks drop.

Do you see the problem here? Do you see how completely and utterly antithetical this is to how the game plays?

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Yes, it was, at the very beginning of Vanilla Wow (iirc before Diremaul). You used to be able to stack, I dunno, whatever MAX_INT in their engine is, number of reckoning stacks. One paladin did it, one paladin dropped Kazzak, then blizzard fixed it.

This isn’t what we’re asking for. We’re asking for reckoning as it was in classic wow straight through BC - stacks up to 4 times, you hold your stack regardless of target, and you can /startattack /stopattack to guarantee you get an extra weapon hit instead of just finishing the weapon swing timer immediately.

Never switching targets and losing your stacks sounds like a bug, though I wouldn’t be surprised if a timer was added in these later patches from Vanilla.

Kinda an exploit. Don’t forget that we still take a critical hit lol. Basically a kind of “glass cannon” calculation - do we take hella crits for an extra weapon hit?

Also, it doesn’t require a macro. Just /sit, then move right as the weapon swing ends. I actually can’t get it working with macros, before or after the “fix.” It’s pretty unreliable too - sometimes you get a crit and no reckoning stack. But, that’s reckoning.

Not a thread killer. People have been churning up videos of the actual game and demonstrating this reference client claim is false.

Every video supporting that the ‘Bug’ was correct has been proven wrong.

It is working as it was intended. Ret has always been a meme spec. We’ve known this for 15+ years.

Regardless, reckoning was never based around a system of combo points on a target like a rogue. If we were to compare, its like having combo points on yourself to use for any target. You cant get them manually, and they are just extra auto attacks.

For rogues their combo points is a core component of how they play and they have it from the start and have abilities specifically to generate combo points.

Paladins, its a 25 talent point core talent that requires you to be hit by a crit to get a single stack.

And right now, because there are so many things that are causing stacks to drop as a result of these changes… ret reckoning is effectively useless.

An offensively terrible class got gutted even further. Imagine that. The single saving grace of the class that made them actually able to do good damage in pvp, is now useless because blizzard thinks its okay to make class balance changes for classic.

Meanwhile, If a warrior had the same gear as me… they could be doing significantly more damage simply because they are meant to do damage, and as such have damaging abilities.

Reckoning to an extent closed that gap in damage. And now we dont have that option anymore. Because functionally, they broke it.

Notice how they solely nerfed the Alliance class that could get bonus AA from reckoning by destroying the ability altogether.

But did nothing about WF because it’s a Horde only feature.

Blizzard showing their bias like usual.


I honestly dont even care about windfury. It’s elemental shamans right now that are ridiculous. The damage they can put out because of the current 1.12 itemization is absurd.

Some of these ele shamans are putting out AQ40 levels of damage atm, and we are still only at mc and onyxia.

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Well, that and their talent that gives them ‘one free crit’ actually gives a crit for everything in a batch (so, it’s a new bug they added in Classic- this wasn’t in Vanilla), so they’re using it to do CL/shock auto crits.

But, because that bug is for a Horde class, Blizz won’t fix it.


That’s how it was in vanilla also…

It’s a textbook exploit. Behavior exists, Blizzard doesn’t like it so patches it. People find another way around the patch doing the exact same thing that was patched out.

I don’t agree that it should have even been patched in the first place, but Blizzard has made their position clear by doing so, making it clearly an exploit to continue doing it.