Ah yes, the 10% STR and stam is pretty useless too. Man you pallies are something else 
The 10% str and stam that doesn’t stack with Kings?
Yama is a known ret hater. He’s accused me of single handedly ‘destroying’ Wrath Classic because Ret paladins got buffed.
Because you constantly whinge about ret dps. Not sure why you didn’t decide to play a different class seeing as your entire enjoyment of the class was tied to it’s position on a graph.
All I’ve ever pointed out was that it was stupid to set the game to patch 3.3.5/3.5 and release on ICC. And I’ve defended the paladin class against bad faith actors and arguments.
Beyond that, I’ve never really campaigned specifically for DPS buffs. In fact, I’m running a Divine Guardian build that makes me lose DPS so I can carry that extra utility for raids.
Only time I could think of is I made 1 lighthearted suggestion of a DPS increase IF they decided to buff us, but my suggestion was never really serious. Feel free to comb through my post history for Wrath Classic for a smoking gun. You won’t find one.
Instead, you’re the one on a very personal crusade. You label ret paladins as cringe larpers and more. And for what? Because warriors aren’t getting the treatment you think they deserve?
My dude, it doesn’t stack with kings.
When I play prot I kings the holy paladin with greater and sanc myself, no one else wants sanc really.
then don’t spec into it? At this point it’s not necessary. Our ret is AM.
Doesn’t stack with kings or a disc priest. You don’t need it. It largely does nothing in most raid comps.
You need Kings (but you can get an 8% version from drums), and you need might (which warriors can also do). Wisdom can be covered by a shaman totem, and Sanc does nothing if you have a disc priest and kings.
So the only blessing you need a paladin for is kings. As your 25 man raid probably has a prot or holy paladin in it, there’s likely no blessing benefit to bringing a ret beyond maybe not bringing an extra warrior for a shout.
Nope, I point out (repeatedly) that this statement is true of Ret paladins in the exact same way it is for warriors.
Warriors have a buff unique to them, but isn’t stackable. (Commanding shout) this nearly guarantees that at least one gets brought to a raid, and that’s probably a DPS warrior given the player base’s preference of prot paladin.
Rets have the ability to have a stackable utility that’s likely redundant by the time you consider adding one to your 25 man group.
Warriors deal enough damage that they compete on the meters against the majority of the specs if geared and played well.
Ret didn’t. That’s why they got buffed (specifically to where Fury was because Blizzard thought that was a good place for both of us to be), and their buff left them at the below fury on average likely for the utility reasons.
Ret didn’t need to be way behind warrior to justify the utility that the spec could bring, because just like warriors, the vast majority of it doesn’t matter in a raid because utility is not meant to be the focus of what gets you into a raid in Wrath.
I do think Blizzard hugely missed the mark on the Feral changes. I think that the goal was fine, but what it did to their DPS was not.
So it’s okay that you bring atleast 3 paladins and on the same plane, you bring a single warrior and you think it means the balance is fine? Our sub par dmg means people don’t bring a second warrior. Which is the point I am making. Paladins had the opportunity to be bought to raid as whatever spec they want. As a warrior you are either prot or fury, you don’t want a second one of either, regardless of which spec you chose, because as a MT they are nowhere near as sought after as a prot pally, and as a dps, you are one of the worst performing specs in the game.
You’re constantly telling me warriors are in as good a spot as rets, but guess what? Ret is a single spec. When your spec is as desirable as the entire warrior class, but your spec gets buffed over the weaker class, then that’s a problem. And the only reason it got buffed is because of the loud REEing of the ret community. It has nothing to do with them getting a raid spot, because they would be getting a spot either way, especially now with their buffs, but you want to keep saying how good of a spot warrior is in, when anyone who plays the game knows that you’re talking complete nonsense.
You only need 1, MAYBE 2. Beyond that there isn’t much real value to their utility. It’s a better spot than warrior utility, but not really in any extreme way. There’s literally no need for 3 paladins. Guilds bringing 3 are largely doing so because holy and prot are overtuned, not because the utility is super valuable.
And Ret’s previous EXTRA sub par damage meant they were also not being brought.
Fury warriors are still better off than rets are in both DPS performance and raid utilization, and will continue to be as we move forward. It’s not Ret’s fault that prot paladin makes prot warrior less desired, nor does a ret paladin have any benefit from prot being good (it actually hurts us because they make our utility considerably less needed).
And no, ret isn’t doing as well as the entire warrior class. It’s below Fury, and the combined representation of warrior specs in high end content completely eclipses Ret’s.
Paladin representation is stupidly high because of holy and prot, which might as well be a different class given that there’s no gear overlap or playstyle overlap between those specs.
And ret wasn’t even buffed to be better than Fury in DPS. We give up DPS to pick up the main utility quoted as being too strong that warriors can’t compete with, which puts us even further behind them.
There’s nothing wrong with that, but fury warriors constantly act like ret got the level of buff that Feral just did, which moved them well above fury in output, and it’s looking like fury would need a legendary to fail to catch up with them.
That’s not what ret got.
Except there was data showing that they really weren’t getting those raid slots, and even after the buff aren’t guaranteed to get into a group. There’s just less reason to deny them outright.
I get that you want ret to go back into the dumpster tier so you can laugh at their poor decision to play Ret over holy or prot, but it isn’t good game balance.
Lol, you couldn’t care less about raid balance. You refuse to acknowledge that paladin as a whole is in a much, much better spot than warriors. But you try and talk down every paladin ability to make it seem like they are all worse than commanding shout . Fact is you just don’t want anyone else receiving buffs, because your desire for a ret buff was entirely based on your own selfish desires and the fact your entire enjoyment of ret is based on its position on a graph and nothing else.
This is largely irrelevant, people who play ret generally don’t want to play holy if a raid would even need that spec at the point where ret got told, by Blizzard, to spec holy or ret.
Which is what was wrong with the announcement they made when they stated they’d refuse to buff rets, it impacted player perception over night and rets could barely get into 5 mans.
If you want to blame anyone for the ret buff, blame the muppet who wrote “spec prot or holy”.
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I don’t. Holy and Prot are great, and prot pal is hugely suppressing prot warrior viability.
But ret wasn’t useful, and still deserved a buff.
The class as a whole wasn’t buffed, a spec within it that was performing significantly below every other PvE DPS spec was.
You act like blizz went and buffed holy and prot beyond where they currently are.
Nope, all of those abilities are great! You just don’t need or want to bring a pre-nerf ret to get them.
(Commanding shout is also amazing though)
Nah man, I was playing ret back in original classic when it had no chance of beating warriors that were doing 2-3x their damage and never asked for buffs.
My spec’s overall position on the meters has been pretty irrelevant for my choice to play and enjoy it.
That’s Fury warrior’s problem now. It literally is all focused on where they are relative to other classes on the meters. They don’t just want to be among the DPS classes like the rets were asking for, they want to be among the top.
The buffs to ret still made sense though (if surprising, given how hands off Blizz has been on class balancing up to this point).
I’m perfectly happy with being the current worst DPS spec in the game, and don’t pretend like ret isn’t still that.
Bloodlust.
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