First, isolate context to dungeons. For raids, it’s a completely different function and mastery stacking is just fine for RM+AToTM builds.
I highly dislike Chi Ji.
Chi Ji requires additional GCDs against active targets while in melee range to get the yield following the initial activation, unlike Yu Lon which provides virtually passive HPS after activation (though more HPS with your normal priority heals). When you meet the target condition, CJ gets the GoM procs but then the EnvM bonuses are clunky and unfriendly compared to breath–it ends up just being a mana positive, single target focused, long cooldown. Since CJ was originally designed as a PvE replacement for the old PvP talent, but then was less consistent vis-a-vis AToTM, I’ve dunked it back into meme space. Not saying it’s not good or whatever. Just saying it will never be worth losing a talent slot plus YuLon over for me. RJW or JSS will always be better options, depending on where I need the throughput – single target or melee cleave.
Mastery has a design gap for healers
Because Mastery for healers offers strict healing, the soft cap valuation of Mastery is generally lower than any other secondary value in dungeons, but the HPS tuning is generally higher. While Psychi is correct in recognizing the throughput differences, performance doesn't exist in a vacuum and is also limited by incoming group damage. Tanks had a similar problem in the initial mock-up for their defensively-focused masteries, except with threat management. Flat attack power was added to mastery due to that discovery, so all stats could scale offensively to keep up. Go through each healer, and you'll see this is true -- some get better valuation on their mastery, like Restoration Shaman, but even still you'll find stats like Crit and Vers performing equally or outpacing because of this **design gap**. (Druid is about the only one which doesn't, because to activate their damage potential, they have to form swap which can be generally risky or unfriendly.)Mastery for PvP is great for other reasonsWhat you get from Mastery in PvP is mobility and lockout avoidance. You don't have the same issues as a FC outrunning your healing range in an M+, nor do you have to consider a player that will kick you the moment you start a Viv cast/Soom channel. Because of these built in protections in a core stat, stacking mastery is often the safest stat for PvP MW. Haste is still preferable in many situations and will only gain value as that Mastery soft cap is better established with free secondary deltas with ilvl increase.
I don’t think anyone is trying to tell Psychi it’s outright not going to work, just that there are good reasons that currently established competitors generally tend to work better within their areas.
Yes mastery build will do minimal hps increase but it reduces dps% by to much for this to be taken seriously.
MW monks issue has not once been hps in keys or raids. You can pretty much do what is being said by th OP with 0% Mastery and do way more DPS. Which is more beneficial.
I think more so is why do you feel you need to have that amount of mastery all the time, when orb of torment exists which is able to give a significant portion of that added mastery on demand for a period of increased direct healing.
As keys goes higher. The amount of incidental damage where you need to constantly heal with direct healing decreases because it is expected for players to understand the amount of damage recieved is at a point where personals is required, otherwise it’s a death. It’s asinine to think that a group can handle massive packs after massive packs requiring that much directed healing with no external factors from other members of your group. If that’s the case hpal and shamans will be trembling as heck because of their lack of constant high healing throughout outside of their cds.
In your reasoning of kyrian as an alternative to venthyr. Wouldn’t that further reduce the amount of passive mastery required even more, since you have more sources of external mastery?
It’s fine starting out healing on mw to stack mastery if u are not comfortable with damage patterns. But as you get comfortable, that crutch is not needed and u trade away that crutch for more damage oriented stats to further move away to less focused healing, to which mastery does not affect atotm’s healing.
Some amount is fine but not at the level of 800+, esp if you are running kyrian and orb.
Alright so a little update on this… been playing around with different builds, some pure dps and some mixed stats, and whats pretty clear is that even if you optimize for pure DPS, its a very small swing in DPS relative to the swing in your mana efficiency / convenience of healing.
Its unfortunate that Bloodmallet does not include DPS for healers, which would be nice, but to use tanks as an example, you can see the difference between the worst secondary stats for DPS and the best is only 700-1000 DPS about 7.5k dps for patchwerk and then 1000-1200 DPS about 9.5k dps for hectic add cleave.
Thats roughly a 10% change in DPS between worst DPS stats and best DPS stats. Now, monk DPS is waaaaay lower so even if it was a 50% swing in DPS (which its not, its only about a 10-30% difference) since its already so low, that 10-30% change in such a small number is very inconsequential compared to the swing in HPET that mastery brings you.
With that in mind, I think that if you make mastery just barely your highest secondary stat, this is very optimal, because you can get the secondary stat bonuses from the 10+ affix to boost your mastery up to a level that is comparable to stacking entirely mastery but while having a much larger portion of your secondary stat budget spent on DPS stats. If you do this, then you can also take pure DPS trinkets, such as Changeling Haste and recently I got Flask of Solemn Night which is really strong too. These trinkets are equivalent to having bloodlust active for a significant portion of the dungeon. This combination is super strong for both DPS and healing. Sure you might be doing 10% less than someone with absolute pure DPS stats, but 10% of such a tiny number is insignificant compared to the swing in healing that you can get from changing secondary stats.
EDIT: Forgot to add that the secondary stat boost from M+ Are manipulatable if you have secondary stats that are close enough. For example, if your mastery is your highest base secondary stat, then you will gain the mastery boost. If you gain the haste proc or use an on use trinket such as Soul Letting Ruby, you can cancel the Aura for the secondary stat boost and it will automatically refresh to your new highest secondary stat. You can use this method to dynamically change which secondary stat you are boosting in case you want to do temporarily more DPS or temporarily more healing.
This method can be inverted for example by having just slightly higher crit than mastery and using a mastery boosting effect such as Fleshcraft or Weapons of Order, giving you even more control over your secondaries when you want them.
Why are you still in mastery? And are you just playing wrong. Unless your hitting 5-6k dps with mastery while holding 9-10k hps in mythic+ than mastery will always be your worst stat.
Crit/vers will out perform mastery 100% of the time due to simply doing more heals/dps and being mana efficient.
I have a feeling what you are seeing is just bias due to you not utilizing your abilities correctly.
So how did I get accomplish the mistweaver mage tower challenge pre nerf, dumb luck?
Even if ATOTM overheals it’s nothing compared to the overhealing that Fallen Order does lol. Also you have to consider that a good portion of ATOTM’s overhealing is due to your ST dps when the party is at full health and not due to ATOTM hitting a full health target instead of a low health target.
Literally so hard not to be sarcastic with this kind of post. I’m pretty sure Taerinn understands what crit and vers do.
The problem that you are running into Xian is that crit/vers are the best throughput stats in a pure mathematical sense but not in a practical sense. The equations might be maximized by crit/vers but those equations neglect the real world factors that occur in keystones, damage profiles, healing profiles, etc.
For example, let’s say that you are battling the Executioner mini boss. Even if you preemptive start casting a heal on the target of Sever, but an explosive goes off, if you don’t have enough haste to complete the cast before the target dies, it didn’t matter whatsoever that you had the “best” throughput stats.
Another example would be the 3rd boss of Sanguine Depths, or Hakkar in DoS. After the big explosion, the group takes large ticking damage which requires you to heal but also dodge swirlies on the ground. If you do not have enough haste to finish the cast before having to move out of the swirly, then it didn’t matter that you had the best throughput stats.
There is a certain “quality factor” that is not well described by just looking at the changes in throughout of a given spell with changes in secondary stats, and it’s up to theorycrafters to be able consider that quality factor when making decisions about builds.
Psychi is talking about this for like 18 keys and below where anything is viable. Obviously in high keys where you wnna pump dmg as much as possible mastery is absolutely the worst stat you could possibly have, but in just normal easy keys where you are just trying to chill and fill up your vault options his build can definitely work.
You need to either read guides on stat weights or take a look at your character page with Excel open on the other screen. You’re just straight up 100% wrong here.
If you’re talking about ATotM exclusively then Haste/Crit are your highest “heals/dps” stats, not Crit/Vers.
If you’re talking about anything else then Mastery if your highest throughput stat in M+.
Also, there are NO Mistweavers pulling 5-6k overall DPS in M+. Only Shamans and Paladins are pulling those numbers.
Throughput isn’t a problem MWs have in M+ atm. Like every healer that’s not a pally or shaman dmg is the biggest issue. So naturally you would avoid mastery like the plague if you are trying to push high keys as a MW. But again the one who posted this does keys from Like a 15-18 key range where anything is fine so it’s alright.
you keep bringing up needing more hps for m+ or more mana efficency. How are you going oom in these keys especially with eat fast available and the mana orbs if you need them?
I think the assumption is that we take no mana powers and only throughput increases, which is why I havent mentioned them at all. I personally dont have problems with HPS or mana efficiency, although it does take effort to learn. My posts arent for people like you or Serethia who have a good understanding of the class.
I try to write for new monks so they will have an easier time learning the class and hopefully improve community perception.
On another note, I think venthyr monks take for granted how strong Fallen Order is to the monk kit… its a powerful passive healing option that costs virtually 0 mana on a short cooldown (likely objectively better for pushing high keys than ATOTM). If you dont have Fallen Order or the venthyr legendary, you have to heal instead of relying on your fallen order monks so yes HPS and mana effiency matter a lot more.
