Fistweavers should stack mastery in m+

Serethia always be derailing my threads and admittedly it really annoys me so yea I’m not surprised that yet another thread of mine has devolved like this.

I’ve been playing monk for about 2 weeks so my thoughts may not count but here is what I’ve identified to be the best route:
Venthyr- Venthyr Legendary.
30% crit - reason: you will most likely be able to have your covenant ability on a 40 sec cd.
20% haste - reason: spinning crane lines up with the gcd.
50% mastery - reason: at 50% mastery, gusts of mists does around 1k healing. Paired with the conduit, that could be 2k more healing on a 10% chance.
Dump whatever you have left in verse - reason: verse increases damage and healing done which includes gust of mist. Since your venthyr lego is now on less than 1 min cd you don’t need more crit. Since your spinning crane kick is aligned with your gcd you don’t need more haste. Since your gust of mist is already healing around 1k (possibly 2k) the verse will then add on to that AND also effects all other healing from your hots.

*** less than 50% mastery may be feasible but I haven’t yet acquired the gear to try anything further.

Side note- Use the ooz trinket from plaguefall and another dps trinket.

Just my thoughts.

Sorry I gave my own thoughts, next time title a post with a DO NOT REPLY I DONT CARE ABOUT ANYONES THOUGHTS that way people know not to type anything into posts you make.

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Why would you stack mastery? MW gain nothing from it? That would be like a Warrior using a 2hd Int weapon. It makes no sense logically

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This is true for raw hps but typically people don’t run into HPS issue but rather dps issues in keys.

but like mana tea is just better

if you want easy of use then you’d go tear of morning

if you are already stacking mastery then i don’t know why you’d want even more of it. You are putting all your chips into the i only have strong single target heals basket

this is false
Vivify base hits main target for 141sp
850 mastery rating = 850 / 35 * 4.2 + 8 * 4.2 = 24.29 * 4.2 + 33.6 = 135.61

I know a difference of 5.5 sp isn’t insane but its not the same not to mention that you are compliantly ignoring any aoe healing what so ever you gain from vivify
WHICH to mention mastery is ONLY single target. It DOES NOT work on vivify cleave
If you factor in the EF buff/resplendent mist you can drop that 895 mastery rating (the actual number required to equal main target vivify) down a crap ton

yeah no. Its a GREAT single target heal but vivify spam is still your bread and butter for an meaningful damage

You can always hold one charge even before hand. It wasn’t use on cooldown but rather make sure you don’t overcap

vivify cast is also 1 gcd. Its just does the healing hit at the start or end of the gcd
Vivify also perfectly scales with the GCD till >100% haste when gcd hits its lower limit and vivify casttime still decreases

You normally are not suppose to cast enveloping mist in m+ unless you need the extra single target healing the healing buff provides. It sounds like you were playing incorrectly

You’re changing your dps uptime by a small % but reducing the damage you do by a large % due to mastery not providing any dps itself outside of this uptime

Its not predictable vs unpredictable its sustained single target vs everything else
One big burst? just pop a few vivifies
Tank is getting ran through? You need enveloping mist for the healing boost and the hot healing it provides

with mana tea off the GCD even if damage is unpredictable you can pop it without hurting your healing

This “build” produces a lot HPS and nothing else which typically HPS isnt the issue in m+ as stated before. You’re reducing your net dps to increase your net hps

Fistweaving is literally just dps to heal. If you have rising mist then you’re doing that.

Currently you can still auto attack during vivify casts so there is literally no dps difference between casting a vivify and a renewing mist

a swing in 21% dps uptime is insane and not going to happen from drowning in mastery
Not to mention the whole vivify vs rem dps difference is literally 0

Their point isn’t that it heals melee less or the net healing is less with group differences its that if you’re constantly having to heal ranged through vivify/rem then you’re not proactively dpsing

you keep through out these random IQ numbers which is highly insulting as you’re basically saying I'm smarter than you so shut up since your build is always the higher number

love this website. I hear the people are super cool about it too

All guides are personal perference but those are typically founded in math and trial and error on a much larger scale than one person doing keys. They have indepth knowledge of the class that its VERY VERY VERY hard to shake a stick at.

This is kind of toxic but lowkey true. 18s are whatever and don’t have hard requirements outside of knowing they key. I know i’m not key god by any means but i have done them without thinking about gear or stats or anything just fine

sounds like alternative facts

you can’t heal the group in less than a gcd unless your healing is coming from hots. If you have to wait for the gcd then you’re not going to be proactively hitting any dps button
Which again vivify and rem have the same time
Gcd starts on start of cast
vivify cast time is the gcd
so when you finish casting your vivify the gcd is also done
Renewing mist is also 1 gcd long

I should note by no means am i saying blindly follow these guides but I’m not going to not suggest them when one person out of thousands don’t agree

This is why there is a handful of people on those teams who all have different playstyles or ideas about the game when they are determining what is best

You don’t have to try all the possibilities for two major reasons.

  1. Wow is a game of numbers so things can be decently broken down to math and determined what is best
  2. You can eliminate factors that are known bad cough chiwave cough greatly reducing the number of combinations

Playstyles can change and on top of that I know many of them will help you with what you’re doing wrong. No game is you start playing and you are the best its constant improvement evne if you don’t realize it.

He debated with you on the topic. He just found your argument not suffice.
Its the exact same way how you find his argument not suffice. Its not narrow mindedness. Its a failure of the other party to lay a compelling argument.

While those communities aim for min/maxing they also understand that not everyone is pushing to the ends of the earth and if you talk to them about your situation they will either say it doesn't matter what you do have fun or provide you with easier talents or things till you move upward naturally

This kid was right about a lot this xpack but also was wrong on a few things and openly admitted to being wrong and why he was wrong. Then took that back to the grind stone and refine his mentality. It should also be SUPER NOTED that its not just those two people but a lot of people who put in work. The amount of work between each person might be unequal and those two might do a lot of it but it is constant fact checked by both their TC peers and the community randomly.

if you constantly get into debates with someone and the plot point isn’t staying on point then either someone has a weak argument or you’re trying too hard to beat them on every point which is never a winning move.

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There are situations where a very high mastery will top the one or two players off in gcds then haste/crit.

I’d call them edge cases but my point is right. But I don’t agree with psychi in general.

Both of you literally do the same thing? Your post is literally going point by point and addressing each of them. The difference is that my opinion is contrary to the mainstream.

From experience, this happens much much more frequently than edge cases. Its about 50% of the time in fact. My peak heals from GoM go as high as 28k, with very frequent 15k-18k GoM I can see it constantly. That means that a good portion of the time I’m healing people for 30-50k in 1 GCD from GoM on EF targets.

There are at least 2 flaws in this argument…
1)You are assuming that Vivify and GoM have the same healing (which albeit in my post I implied that at around 850 mastery GoM does heal the same as Vivify), but there are other effects that come into play such as Essence Font doubling that and then Resplendent Mist is a huge deal. This means that since GoM procs twice on EF targets, you would have to cast 2 vivify for 2 GCDs according to your logic.

2)You are neglecting the mana cost of Vivify compared to ReM which is the easiest way to proc GoM. When you start to consider the mana cost of spamming multiple vivify to do what just 2 ReMs can do, it starts to paint a different picture.

You didn’t present an opinion, you presented an argument.

Again, if you wanted to present a differing opinion, you wouldn’t have opened with this. This is a challenge. Nobodys arguing whether or not something works better for you. You should always play whatever playstyle works best for you.

If you’re going to state “x is better than y”, you had best be prepared for people to go through every point you make to see if they agree or disagree, especially in a game where numbers are central to everything.

If you want to share a differing opinion rather than state an arguing point, your mindset should be “this works better for me” rather than “this is flat out better”. The difference in contextual language makes a massive difference.

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If you read my post, does it not reek of stupid sarcasm? “Ancient Teachings of the Monastery, duh”, “Kyrian super dank obv”…

How could you honestly think I’m being serious about absolutes such as that one?

I am poking fun at the uptightness of the monk theorycrafting community, who throws a tizzy when someone outside the clique tries to reccomend anything other than what the GODS OF SERENITY have decreed.

Next time I will try to use words like “Hey guys you should try this I think its really cool” instead of saying “this is what you should do”, even though, the responses I’ll get wont be as entertaining.

The truth of the matter is that there is no objective tool to calculate the best build, and theorycrafting in general is merely human approximation of an optimization algorithm called gradient descent. To use an analogy, the currently purported “best build” is merely a local minimum of some user-defined “effectiveness function” for mistweaver, which takes in your talents, secondary stats, and rotation, and outputs a value that represents how effective is that combination of stuff. But, there is no way to determine whether that local minimum is the absolute minimum. Alternatively, there are multiple local minima that have basically the same value as the current “best build”, meaning that there are different builds which are just as effective as the current build, its just a matter of exploring that space to find them.

Sounds like someone is in second year calc. Lol.

Sounds like someone has never taken calc. Lol.

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I think I presented my point wrong there.
You’re not doing it in under a GCD is my argument. You’re doing it in 1 gcd it just does that GCD have a cast or not.
Nothing to do with is mastery is a strong ST heal or not.

We are trying to have a debate that is all. Try to figure out all the reasons and present counter arguments. If those lead to other arguments and points needing to be validated than that is the natural flow of conversation.

You literally didn’t read the whole post. I directly stated

A factor you are neglecting is any AOE healing aspect of vivify.
Assuming you have 3 renewing mists out vivify’s healing is 141 + mastery + 104 * 3
if you want to say how much mastery healing do i need to equal the pure vivify aspect you do
141 + 104 * 3 = mastery %
Which will then boil down to
453 = (x / 35 * 4.2 + 33.6) * 1.resplendent mist average * 2 (assuming EF)

If we are talking purely single target healing then you remove the 104 * 3 aspect.

My point is that vivify isn’t purely single target healing while Gust of Mist from renewing mist is. Renewing mist ONLY procs gust of mist healing on cast so its very easy to compare the difference in terms of raw hps. This means your comparison isn’t as direct as you stated before.

we were talking about pure healing here not HPM.

Sounds like someone thinks calc is needed for most wow Math. Lol.

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If this is entertainment for you why are you complaining when Serethia or anyone else actually attempts to engage with the post? Also sarcasm isn’t necessarily used to illustrate facetious points exclusively.

The rest of your comments are going to still fall under the category of; nobody is arguing with you on playing a build that’s working well for you. If you’re trying to use satire to address a community mindset (that they have to play the best build instead of the build they’re good at) then why are you mocking people who are engaging with your post on a serious level?

Solving for X with 226 Resplendent Mist in your formula is ~1333. If thats the amount of healing you need to equal a 3 cleave vivify its really not a lot, only around 475 mastery. My Unbound Changeling basically gives me that amount of mastery on its proc alone lol.

Im assuming the highlighted portion refers to the fact that your vivify also procs gust, so we can add that too. Most venthyr strive to have 0 mastery so lets just ssume ~100 rating:
453 + (y / 35 * 4.2 + 33.6) * 1.resplendent mist average * 2 (assuming EF) = (x / 35 * 4.2 + 33.6) * 1.resplendent mist average * 2 (assuming EF)
simplify
1613.24 + y = x | y ~ 300
x = 1912.23 which amounts to around 675 mastery. Considering you have a secondary stat budget of around 2k, thats only 33% of your secondary stat budget, really not a lot when you consider things.

Whats more interesting is when you try to consider how much versatility you would need to make your 3 cleave vivify match my GoMs (without trinket procs, Kyrian cov ability, or affixes mind you)

[453 + (300/35*4.2 +33.6)*2.34]*V = 920
or V = 1.49 or ~49% which is around 1960 vers. You know, no big deal considering thats your entire secondary stat budget.

Thats what I dont understand, how is that not of any interest to the monk community? How can they say that mastery is bad when it scales so dang fast? It doesnt make sense to me. Besides, your whole 3 target vivify argument falls out the window when you consider how often only a single person takes a massive hit of damage. All the time in M+ its usually just 1 or 2 people who take a large amount of spike damage that reduces them to sub 50%. If only 1 person got hit hard, then your cleave means nothing and you are only doing a ton of inefficient healing to top that 1 person off.

I think Psychi should write up the equations of healing as a function of int, crit, haste, mastery:

Vivify(i,c,h,m) and take the gradient of those equations so you can find the optimal path of secondary stats for each heal.

See if you can find some commonalities between the paths for each of our heals and report back.

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Hey man that’s not bad! You’re forgetting a few things… vers, mana cost, and time are the big ones, (among other things), but otherwise you’re on the right track!

That is in fact one way to approach theory crafting from a mathematical standpoint, thank you :slight_smile:

I literally sit down and do that to theorycraft sometimes not gonna lie, although, I do use other tools besides the gradient. Gradient is just useful for directly comparing secondary stats but not necessarily other aspects of theorycrafting which requires other math tools.

Oh! Don’t forget which part of the downward curve of the remaining attention span! That def has an effect on response time.

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Thats not the healing. Thats the mastery rating required assuming no DR to equal it.

Yes include vers but I wouldn’t include mana.

But also find the grad of healing per mana (hpm) and healing per execute time (hpct (?) I think that is the letter that are used for that.)

Find the vector, v(haste, crit, int, mastery, vers) at their maximums. Use the percent healing from logs of typical play styles as coefficients for the vector sum of all your healing styles to find potential bis healing stat weights. Run all of those potential bis stat weights and find the one that fits your personal playstyle.