I get it, the forums are typically rife with doom and gloom, but the rogue forums seem pretty replete with anger and frustration and a lot of the points I’ve seen seem pretty rough (like the rogue dev leaving the rogue development during the process, effectively freezing it).
I don’t plan on pushing high content but I’m wondering if it’s even worth rolling up a rogue for TWW if it’s as bad as folks are saying? I don’t care about being the ‘best,’ I just want to be viable but I rarely - and I mean, like MAYBE 1 out of 15 PVE dungeon heroic runs - see a rogue.
You’d probably enjoy any spec more than rogue as a whole even if you weren’t hardpushing endgame. Even if you were somebody that pretty much only does world content we’re the worst at that too because you cant vanish as a solo player without resetting mobs.
We’re the least played class for a reason and blizzard wants to keep it that way so
Not saying you shouldn’t try it if you really wanted to since leveling is super fast right now on retail and remix but we also have probably the absolute worst leveling experience of any class too because things that are required for the specs to even function at a base level are at the bottom of the tree and the 3 specs play nothing like they do at level cap.
If you’re not trying to get into the high-end content, you shouldn’t worry about the doom and gloom as much.
The discontent is more or less the fatigue of playing a class that barely changes, or if it does change (like Crackshot spam) it becomes the dominant build and every other build kind of rots on the vine in comparison.
Call crackshot spam all you want, but that’s obviously a mischaracterization from someone who sounds like they can’t utilize the talent to its full potential. Crackshot windows have zero set rotation, until you click BtE you have no idea what your next global after that BtE is going to be.
Crackshot has a lot of skill expression and effort required with reacting to Ace resets or determining your next best builder if you dont get a reset. That’s why the spec is usually referred to as “hard” and it’s mostly the short 0.8 sec gcd giving you very little time to react as outlaw.
What’s so skillfull of pressing BtE, waiting for Ace then setting up the logic; if Ace activates, press X combo filler for another 7 Bte, or if Ace does not activate, press X combo filler twice (depending on buffs) and then press Bte?
Because that’s the entire build in a nutshell. That’s what all your talents are driving towards; spamming as many BtE’s in a Vanish window as humanly possible.
Personally, I think a lot of the Rogue angst actually comes from the fact that Rogues still rely on Energy and Combo Points, but that’s a different discussion altogether in terms of modern game design.
I’ve made alts of pretty much every spec and class several times throughout WoW’s history (playing off and on since Vanilla), and Rogue is currently the most fun for me precisely because it’s a bit more of a challenge while also offering gameplay loops that other classes simply lack.
Just don’t. Even if you do, Rogue takes more work than any other class to do good damage. You need to legit be ADHD to play it at a super high level. And to level and have a class for world content seems like a complete waste of time. Might as well unsub at that rate lol.
Nothing necessarily skillful, but like I said most of the “outlaw is hard” comments come from the 0.8 sec gcd. If I were to make the outlaw hard argument, well, I already did, but stealth windows have no set rotation with crackshot. Specs like assa are literally a completely static rotation, and after kingsbane you chain envenoms until kingsbane is up. Nothing else to that spec other than keeping up spatter and some ruptures in aoe for energy.
I just played ret last night to level my paladin from 60-70 on the pre-patch (only took about 35m btw its crazy fast). Ret is and has been one of the strongest specs to play and i just realized how braindead simple it is to play. It’s like a super simplified rogue with only 3 point spenders. They have 2 offensive cds, a spender for aoe and 1 for single target. Their only other spender is a heal with no cooldown that instantly heals 60-70% of their hp. Add on an execute that can be used during burst windows and 2 generators on short cds, and that’s the whole class in a nutshell.
If ret and rogue were put on a difficulty scale to play it would literally be ret at 2, rogue at 8-10 (assass 8, sub 10). And yet in tww rets get a complete class fantasy with 2 fully functioning hero trees to choose from. This is why rogue is the lowest played class. At this point rogue players aren’t even playing the same game as everyone else anymore.
And yet a lot of players dislike crack shot. I think the best solution is to just have it not be the only option. At least have an alternate capstone path that lets players play without reliance on stealth mechanics. It’s outlaw ffs, it has never been a stealth mechanic spec until DF
The only people who dislike crackshot are the people who also want the gameplay to be as slow as combat, it’s what you see all around here. Every person who plays outlaw seriously recognizes it’s niche as the lowest gcd in the game playstyle combined with crackshot windows requiring fast reaction time to procs and buffs.
These forums are littered with people who havent played outlaw in DF. If you want slow gameplay, play assa rogue. Outlaw is no longer combat, and it never will be. It remains the 0.8 sec gcd spec, the only difference is in TWW we have to take haste now and sadly have our tierset removed.
Go into the rogue discord where people who actually play rogue all the time and want the class to be fun are. People in there overwhelmingly like crackshot, obviously some like HO, but usually they say its because KiR is too hard to manage. The people youre alluding to dwell solely on the blizzard forums because they know they don’t fit in the retail rogue discord begging for combat to come back. Play cata or assa if u dont like fast outlaw.
People who use obscurantism to promote degenerate gameplay that has turned more people away than its gained. But nah, imitation Sub rogues is super popular, so says the dregs in Ravenholdt.
I just want it to stop being discount Subtlety and offer other alternatives than Crackspam.
What about the people who played rogue for more than just this expansion?
I get it, there are players who like the new GCD locked crack shot style play, but that was never what outlaw was, quite the opposite. Outlaw in legion, and combat before it never relied or even engaged in stealth mechanics. Outlaw in DF is basically what sub should be. I don’t even think most players mind lots of gcds. It’s the stealth reliance that sucks and feels horrible when any number of variables mess up your stealth windows.
Combat was unique compared to Warriors. Basically, you got deadlier the longer you stayed in combat, using strong combo-point builders and a judicial use of CDs to keep you going.
It was an exceptionally fun spec that anyone could get into. The problem was Blizzard’s weird need of ‘class fantasy’ and decided ‘Combat’ was too vague; so they chose the worst people (as in skill, hygiene, luck, and history) to be Outlaw Pirates…
During systemlands I did some testing with Bandit Guild legendary and it was actually fun using that along with other legendary combo like inv shadow dust and SND while using Count the Odds to fill in gaps.
Current Outlaw is closer to Combat than Legion Outlaw. But the spec is stuck being half Combat, 1/4 Sub and 1/4 Legion Outlaw which is why it feels like a mess.
Outlaw has it’s own niche in DF. There is no other spec like it, and removing it would be a disservice to people who enjoy it’s playstyle.
Hearty laugh or legitimate cringe and depression? Half of the people here make is painfully obvious they dont play the spec and these are the people blizz is listening to, is that not concerning? Like that guy saying he uses shiv rotationally as outlaw or the other guy saying KiR is too long of a cd LOL. At least in the discord you have people who actually play the class, and it’s far from an echo chamber, there is frequent discourse and conflicting opinions, I’ve seen plenty of people HATING ON STEALTH AND CRACKSHOT in there, so yah idk what to say at this pt.
Maybe actually read what people post instead of just insulting people?
And what do you mean ‘Blizz is listening to’? Most of the nerfs hurt Sinister Strike builds way more than Hillbilly Subtlety, so again, who doesn’t know what they’re talking about?
