I take it over BFA any day. That one was the expansion that broke me cuz Blizzard ruined the Horde in it and turned them into sidekicks of the alliance leaders. And I will never forgive Blizzard for this.
Shadowlands biggest failure was Zooval for the most part. If he was built up for a few expansions, with each one dropping hints of his existance, I think SL would’ve went over better than it did with most people
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Hum, i dont know i just made a shortcut in my mind, since to me it is the most symbolic factor of what makes a divine being “divine” and for titans when it was said in chronnicles they cant even walk on azeroth without breaking it because of their size.
But its my bad, i just assumed you were talking about that.
Oh i see, well i will say it is debtable wether or not this give the feel of him being “not full power” in the boss fight.
Dont worry, i was not talking about “lore facts” at all, more on a artistic proces level.
If you want my thoughts as to “why” the writers created the First Ones, i think, there is 2 reasons :
1 - As i explained, the Titans during Legion got deminished, because they became bosses for some of them, and even the ones you dont fight you talk to them like if they were normal npcs which removed a kind of aura they had during 15y.
2 - The new writing team wanted to make their own “things”, its a bit of a problem when you have new writers who come to an altrady existing univers with already all its gods presents, add the fact that the said writer is a marvel fan and bam you get the First Ones.
Oh, i see, i did not remember that part, hmmm i suppose, from what you brought up and what i know that, the 6 Forces existed prior to their arrival as you mention, but not the “beings”’ related to them, because from what i recall the Zereth were made by the First Ones, and in said Zereth, like the Zereth Mortis, are made beings related to the Forces, like for example Eternals being made in the forges of the afterlives.
So in a way, i think, as the 6 Forces were, “mindless” and just opposed each others, the First Ones gave the Forces some kind of Order by puting a hierarchy, a “mind” into them by creating beings made out of each Forces.
Thats how i imagine it.
As i said in one of my previous posts : Just you wait the story of the Dark First One who think his kin is wrong and patterns are flawed! 
Thats what i said to look at the OG titan lore, (the one from war3 manual) because back at this moments they were exactly like First Ones : Mysterious, all mighty Gods who created and ordered everything.
The Aman’thul being a jerk is pretty recent thing.
Why Argus thought? Because Argus was clearly definished as a titan even in the more recent lore, while Azeroth was retconed to be “The Prime World Soul”
There’s a particular forum poster who begins with T and ends with Y (I’m sure you know who I’m referring towards, lol) 
Who seems to strongly suggest there was, and there was not a single retcon made to have such “established” — and any who don’t see it are just “ignorant” lol
But honestly — I personally think Shadowlands failed for a number of reasons. Zovaal was one of them for sure, much for the reasons you suggested – we agree on that; however there were a few built or retconned foundations set within the cosmology and that of the game’s universe that seemed damaging, cheap & eroding to the overall ethos & story of WoW. 
Personally I’d love it if it’s revealed that “The First Ones” are divine entities representing different cosmologies — That don’t exactly make up an entire pantheon and have actually opposed or waged war with one another, but have teamed up on odd occassions for what they considered “The greater good” or towards that which was a boon to all, or the majority of them.
Reason being, is that it’d make for a better story and more diverse content & lore. 
I kind of liked that too — but still loved the way they were portrayed in Chronicles Volume 1-3 
And yeah I understand Aman’Thul being a jerk is a pretty recent thing 
Hence why I’d like if there’s some nuance to it (stuff we agree with) on top of stuff we disagree with, with the result of us going against them and needing to either shatter their form once more — or shackle them like we did Sargeras 
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in regards of all expansions my ranking goes like this:
Cataclysm > Shadowlands> wotlk > Legion > Mop > TWW=dragonflight > TBC > WOD > BFA
no counting classic here since it is the main game.
Yeah, we’re definately NOT going to agree on Shadowlands
I detest it, especially for what it did to the overall lore. 
My personal tier list would be:
- Wrath of the Lich King
- Legion
- For me Vanilla & Burning Crusade kind of blur together, so I’ll dub them together.
- MoP and Dragonflight I kind of find relatively equal.
- WoD
- BFA
- and if I wipe off the grime & sift through the sludge, you’ll find Shadowlands.
Now to be fair, those are mostly based on personal experiences, than overall design.
The expansions that I enjoyed the story most out of — and happened to enjoy the narrative aspects?
- Wrath of the Lich King
- Legion
- MoP
- and Dragonflight
The rest I find either mediocre, “meh” or outright terrible.
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Dam that ranking hurt my eyes, like what? Cataclysm first? MoP NOT frist? Bfa last? What?
We can agree to disagree!
Woltk is wayyy too high
I feel like you overrate Wrath, because Wrath have so many problems its just not possible you would put it so high if you knew all of the problems it have.
We will see Northend again during Last Titan since there are so many stories left untold after we left back in 2010. Taunka, Frostborn, the Drakkari, what remains of the Scourge and of course Ulduar and Yogg-Saron.
Many happened to have loved the Wrath of the Lich King expansion passionately and it’s often regarded by much of the community as the “peak” of WoW. That’s not to say it didn’t have problems, but as for the most part? …
I enjoyed it thoroughly
Especially the story, aesthetics and content such as the quests, dungeons & raids.
Ulduar I found phenomenal. 
I’m aware of a few of the lore muckups they had in that expansion, but after Shadowlands? All that looks like a mere minor “whoopsie” in comparison
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The fact people regard it as the “peak” all comes down to ONE thing and that thing is : ARTHAS!!! omg omg omg omg
But, Arthas, was ruined in wrath, ruined like hard ruined just like the scourge.
Sorry but…what story? Because story in wrath? It barely have any stories considering it steal most of its story to war3, but not only does it steal it, it also retcons it and stomp on it hard.
Oh and it also steal a lot from Pirate of Carahibans 3, really, you are allowed to enjoy the expacs, but be honest in your mind and admit it was bad lore objectively.
Hahahah, no no, its was not “a few problem” the expac constantly have problems you want a list? Ok lets go! (And i am sure i wont even list all!)
Arthas is the Lich King : Lets start it with that, Arthas being the only in power? In war3 it was not like that, the end of war3 is “NOW WE ARE ONE!” and not “yay i am arthas and i am in control now!” and also, Arthas was always a puppet of Ner’zhul, the retcons of him beating Ner’zhul was total bs and aimed at please Arthas fans. Because, Ner’zhul possesed his soul, yep, as soon as Arthas took the runeblade, his soul was owned by Ner’zhul, and there his will was owned by Ner’zhul, and now you tell me, that taking the helmet and put on his head will make him have more willpoer? Its not how it work, the helm is called HELMET OF DOMINATION for a dam reason, because it dominate them ind of the one who wears it. Ner’zhul is inside the helm so therefore IT dominate the one who wield the helm.
And you can even see how the devs did not even know what they were doing when you have Arthas at the end of the icc being like “ho father, is it over?!” making it seems like he was mind controlled all this time…but no!! The narrative tells you it was Arthas, all along!!! The cgi “arthas my son” etc its all “arthas arthas arthas” where is Ner’zhul in woltk? And you know what? SHADOWLANDS at least showed us Ner’zhul so yeah SL is better than woltk at least on the respect to Ner’zhul because it least it did not ignore its existence!
2 - The Scourge : The Scourge in the whole expac, is never a threat, you destroy it, you steamroll it, and its never a kind of back and froth with it, its just, you arrive in Borean Tundra or Howling Fjord, and you just STEAMROLL to Icecrown. The biggest hit was when Varian states “'In wrathgate, the horde did more victims than the scourge” meaning the scourge was worthless…
3 - Anub’arak : The most disrespected char out there, people cry out for Kael’thas these days, but at least Kael’thas made some kind of sense, Anub’arak? He die in a dam dungeon, and then he is resurected without any explaination and just come out of nowhere in the worst raid ever (ToC) and die again! His story had zero developpement, he was just a boss…Kael’thas at least had some developpement even if they were badly written, here you have just nothing.
4 - Malygos : Malygos became mad…and he died…do i need to explain why its stupid writing?
5 - The Keepers of Ulduar : The problem with them, as much as i like them, is that these keepers are just…norse gods, they have the same story, they have even the same names and when you think about it…its lazy creativity, a copy paste, and thus its bad.
6 - There must always be a Lich King : I dont get why people dont get annoyed by this finale, the cineamtic of the end of the raid makes literally no sense and i will explain why here :
. Firstly as i eplained above, why do arthas is like “is it over” if it was him doing all these thing? (Metzen even said “you are free to speculate!” to that quesiton, which mean “i dont know stop aksing!”)
. Second, Terenas syaing the most bs thing i ever heard : “Without their master comand, the scrouge is AN EVEN BIGGER THREAT to this world” what? You mean to tell me, that the scourge is more dangerous without the Lich King than with a Lich King? This is completly dumb, it makes just no sense, and if it was true, why would then Ner’zhul or Arthas just go into sleep mod to win? And the scourge is mindless without the LK, it was always said! Also, this ia retcon of war3, because in war3 Ner’zhul states : “If i die, the scourge will be undone!” meaning that, if you kill the LK the scouge is just no more. Its also stated by Kil’jaeden, hence why he wanted to destroy it.
7 - Bolvar and Tirion : This is also bound to the finale cineamtic, but it deserve its own point : Tirion was meant to be the Lich King, its clear it was where the writer were going, but, they changed their plans!!! As they saw theories on forums, about Bolvar and so they found funny, to flush down the drain all the story with Tirion and make Bolvar come back (even if he was supposed to become a mirror boss for saurfang for the opposite faction) and make him the LK! They just did not care about their own story.
8 - The Lich King is a complete dumbass : The Lich King, is completly dumb in wrath, the guy could kill us at any moment, but he never does…
And you can come up and tell me like “Oh but it was his plan” i know that but, this plan was dumb and made no sense :
Let me explains you why the plan of “testing us, making us stronger, killing us, and make army of the strongest champions” is dumb and make no sense because :
LK can kill anyone, and res anyone into an undead servant, or dk or whatever, its not like he select people he can turn into his dk, he just turn everybody if he wants.
Thats being said, why would he make a selection of the “most powerful champions” if the result in the end is to anyway have everyone be killed and turned into undead under his service?
He could just kill us no matter when, it would have changed nothing.
Thus this is why the idea of making us stronger and testing us etc is not making any sense.
9 - The Ebon Blade DK : You remember War3? Do you remember what it took for the Forsaken to break free of the Lich King? Let me remind you. It took, that the LK be weakened by the spell Illidan used with the eye of Sargeras, it took them to be far away from LK, as we saw in war3, the undead on Northrend were still strongly under his comand, meaning the closer you are from LK the harder it is to break free, near impossible. Now what it took in wrath for the ebon blade to break free? Power of friendship? They just broke free, even thought LK was just nearby.
Also about this, ask yourself one thing, LK is the ultimate necromencer, the ultimate mindcontroler of Undeads, explain me why, he never retook control of the Forsaken? Or the ebon blade? He could you know, i mean, he is the freaking LK, he can dominate any undead he wants.
Here are some of the points, of why wrath is bad lore, and you should accept that, and to be honest, NONE of the bad lore wrath did should be forgiven, why would it? Do you forgive shadowlands for its bad lore? no you dont, so why wrath? Be objective. Like i could also mention Muradin not being dead and just had amnesia, i could mention other things; like Dalaran which overall made no sense to even be here, or like Grizzly Hills not being invaded by the scourge, or the vrykuls being copy paste bigger dwarves etc etc…
Do take note that, i dont use any of the SL lore in the critics i make for Wrath, because we have to stay in the contexe of wrath, and why wrath was bad even back in 2008.
PS : I think people should start being fair with bfa and stop putting tbc and wrath above it in term of lore, bfa was good. Like i find it so silly when peopel say “ho bc was terrible lore ruined kael thas, vashj and illidan” but still put bc above bc…like what?
If that was true, the community would have had a far better reception to Shadowlands than what’s been reflected from the majority of media outlets & social platforms.
Did you never felt like sometimes the majority of people are missing something? Like, see the tree but not the forest?
Remember on how people thought wod was awesome once it was announced, not understanding that the plot and all the time travel was very bad.
It is the same here with Arthas, because, the thing is, what is actually Arthas story developpement in Wrath? Because, what people love was his war3 arc, then in wrath? What he do? Cool pose, and well, thats pretty much it because, he dont really have cool memorable quotes, most of his quotes are very saturday cartoon when you look at it like when he says “i will show you justice of the grave” (this sentance makes no sense)
He dont particularly fair good, for instance in the wrathgate cineamtic he gets owned in front of his home by forsaken plague and just return in his home.
Then, he is very dumb as i already explained, like when he kill one of his valkyr which was possesed by a banshee of the ebon blade, but did not kill the banshee, or did not dominate it.
And thats my friend, thats called “Form VS Depth” Arthas have a lot in term of forms, he look badass, his design is cool, its EPIC but in term of depth, when you beyound the “epic” look, the character (in wrath) is not really much…
Also, major point you have to take into account is : most people back in wrath were 8-13y old big max was like 17y old, and at such ages, you are not really able to know how a scenario, a story, a narrative work, much less criticiez it. And most of it comes down to “form” as a young person you dont really get the depth, mostly the form, the “epic” the “its cool”. And it mainly come down to nostalgie nowadays.
I admit, this is me at times.
For example, I don’t remember people thinking wod was awesome when it was announced. Granted, I had other things going on in my life at the time and it was several years ago, but I don’t remember that.
It was pretty well recieved actually, i remember the “finally we are back to the true warcraft!!!” and other things like this, and lets not forget the “Finally done with these dumb pandas!”
WoD when it was announced had a big com going on too, if you remember the Azeroth chopper thing =p the lord of war serie etc…
People were pretty hype!
Also, a fact is, the cgi with the most view on Youtube…is the wod one with 37M views.
If you curious you can check the old news on comunity and check the coments, you will see how hyped people were.
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To be fair I do enjoy the cinematics with that expansion. The one with Yrel hitting Blackhand with Durotan’s axe is probably my favorite of them.
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The cinematics are always amazing and rarely do they disappoint. The team that does the cinematics deserve a ton of credit. Those aren’t easy to put together
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See, I have a bias for this theory because it takes something I hate and makes me absolutely love it.
It was the exact original intent behind the “Old Gods.” To be grotesque representations of primordial chaos that predate the Titans, with the Titans representing Order and advancement in a chaotic, entropic universe. Something very common to mythology, like the “real” titans from Greek and Roman myth, and the Jotunn from Norse myth.
It takes the “First Ones” from being just a bland copy of an existing idea, and instead turns them into a fulfillment of something that already has a basis in lore. It makes the “First Ones” enigmatic and interesting. How and why did they create the universe? Were they all evil, or were there a handful of good ones?
Turning them into villains (maybe the Void Lords themselves?) is a really awesome and exciting way to fix the concept.
I also wanted to say something, to add about the “First Ones = Titans++ in term of concept and reception”
If you think about it, this thread is exactly doing what people did back in the old days when the titans had an overall aura of mystery to them, i remember during Woltk when people said theories like “ho but what if old gods are actually the titans negative part?” or “what if the titans were actually evil?” etc
To be honest, wod was a cool expansion, in term of its vibes and all, its the best example of a terrible plot and terrible overall idea, but a great “form” and great marketing.
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Whenever I hear the term “First Ones” I immediately think of Babylon 5.