The main issue is, that they “dethrones” the titans by doing…exactly the same as the titans, which is a big lack of creativity. If at least they made something different than the titans.
I think you dont realize the scale of how the First Ones are just the titans.
I can list them if you want.
The First Ones just seemed like a forced insert Mary Sue version of the titans honestly.
If they revealed they were titans as well, but just that of a different Pantheon? Sure, I’d accept that. 
Otherwise yeah … 
They’d just seem like a cheap knock off, posing as the upgrade. lol.
The First Ones did not create the universe, nor the great dark beyond, nor the 6 forces.
Which “basic” fact do you think I didn’t get right…? What I was typing about were the first one systems, not the Zovaal crisis. Every single one of the 4 main robot islands are doing unethical things to the mortal souls which go there… “even when” they were operating apparently as the First Ones wanted them to run. Their status quo is unethical. Their status quo is villainous.
They didn’t design the cosmos, the cosmos existed before them. And…are you equating Zovaal with “one cosmic power” ? Nothing in the lore suggested to me that Zovaal was synonymous with the cosmic power of death itself; nor Denathrius, nor the Primus, nor the Archon, nor the Winter Queen. At best, both the shadowlands and the zereth installations seem like artificial mechanisms in between and/or interfering with how the 6 earlier forces used to be before the First Ones.
There is nothing in the lore that says First Ones are Titans. Rather, as I hinted at in my first comment…I’m thinking more and more that Titans may just be World Souls who are being deceived and interfered with by First Ones so that First Ones can steal energy from them…since they are souls. And First Ones don’t seem to have any souls…in any zereth, by the looks of it.
You have a source for that claim?
Those ducks do be sus
Well… you were half right when it came to this.
Well, think of the titans prior Chronnicles, or in the origins, if you remember they were exactly that, extremly powerful god like beings which ordered the cosmos.
But since in Legion they deminished the titans (you fight Aggramar and even kill Argus) they had to do somehting “bigger!” and you can argue like “ho but it was not full power titans!” its not the point, as soon as in your codex you have the titan as a boss, its alredy too late and already deminish it, its like in your dnd campaign, you should not put divinity for your players to face. If only it was written “Avatar of Aggramar” or somehting, but its not even the case, and you even get the title “titanslayer” which is really putting the titans at the level of any other bosses.
I was not talking in a lore pov, but in a conceptual one. The First Ones, when the writers created them, just made a bigger versions of the titans in everything the titans was to a bigger scale.
I know that its not in the lore, i just say it was a cheap creation of the writers.
They created the 6 Forces from what i know. Just not the other things you mentioned. The 6 Forces they made them to Order the universe.
Yeah I never understood why they didnt do it. Even though Ion does say that the Aggramar boss encounter was against him in an Avatar body Sargeras shoved his soul into.
As for Argus, we only managed to defeat him due to the following reasons
I believe that was what the Void Lords were meant to be. The next big threat. Chronicles vol 1 was written alongside early Legion.
Yes, Ion do say that its not the actual Aggramar, but if you did not see that interview, sadly nothing in game point at this and again, its as i explained a matter of “symbolism” on term of symbolism the fact in the codex its written simply aggramar and nothing say its an avatar give the overall vibe that its THE aggramar.
And imo, i feel it is also to make the player feel powerful, to kill an actual titan, often if you say its not full power what you face and beat; people feel like its “worthless” its why the devs often be like “you faced x character at its full power!” to make thep layer feel like “i am strong!”
Yes, we fought not a full power argus, but still, you get the title of titan slayer like you are some kind of god killing machin =/ again its a matter of symbolism;, all of these things made the titan “less” in term of powers.
Its why, during SL, Ion stated that all enemies from now on should be “titan lvl” (with the jailer)
Its where things gets problematic, because, even the “titan level” beings are seen as bosses.
Yeah, and if you think about it, the Void Lords were written in early Legion, and they too deminished the old gods, because well, you fought old gods (even if not full pwoer again) in vanilla and wrath, so they felt like they needed to come up with “a bigger better thing”
The Void Lords are kind of like the First Ones in that way, but sadly for the Void Lords, we did not even have the time to even see them or grab what they are and bam, first ones happenened deminishing the whole cosmic chart by 1 level because “he frist ones are above allll of the other 6 forces!”
I would say the difference in his appearance when you compare his raid boss model and his model during the Argus encounter hints towards that.
Oh? Does he have a different size during the Argus fight? I always felt for me that he was the same size as the raid boss?
But also, when you have that cutscene, if you remember when Aggramar come to face the player and nearly smash him down, he really feel like giant.
How did you get size from what I said?
His design in the argus encounter matches the artwork we have had of Aggramar in the past. The raid boss version does not. Not even a corrupted version of his original and actual appearance.
Expedition Report A37J Part 1. excerpt of which reads “… There are references to forces so primal that we have no frame of reference for them. Roiling and churning, or measured and deliberate? The words here have multiple meanings, I must set them aside for now. […]These six forces existed in strife. Well, not strife in the way one such as you or I would see it. Opposition surely, but whether malignant or benign is unclear. There was imbalance, until there was a need for something more.
They came together (or were brought together, depending on how one interprets the fractal) and gave form to their design. Forged? Scribed? Shaped? The exact word is elusive. Each architect gave a portion of themselves, and thus the pattern was drawn. What is clear is that great powers took shape. How many? There are numbers within numbers, my friends. At first I thought only two, until I perceived an infinite array – O, the terror of it! – but as of late I have settled on six. Possibly seven, but the last might be an artifact of the geometry. A fractal.”
Basically, there is no evidence that the First Ones “created” the 6 forces…only that they apparently interfered some time later. Call it forging or shaping if you wish. That’s what my first comment to start the thread is considering…I think all the zereth facilities and the robot islands and all that designing was outside the original system. A seventh force, tampering and trying to chain the 6 forces that existed before they came along. I think the First Ones are that 7th force from outside.
Ah, maybe you think you know more about what the writers intended… as I said in the start of my topic, I don’t even know what those writers intended. So yeah, that doesn’t appear to be the lore.
No… as I showed above, they did not create the 6 forces. They definitely interfered with them later, when they came around and wanted them to act differently, no doubt. But that’s what I’m saying…I think those zereth installations are an interference, something in between and foreign to how the forces were before their arrival. The First Ones aren’t really ordering anything, they just seem to be arranging a system whereby they can steal mortal souls and squeeze energy from them. And other kinds of souls, like middle power souls (wild gods, eternal one souls, etc) and greater power souls such as World Souls.
Titans aren’t exactly Mary Sues, given they had one of their own go cray-cray, free a demonic prison and go on a burning crusade to eradicate all life 
Not to mention it’s been referenced pretty heavily that Aman’Thul is sort of a jerk 
As for the First Ones, they weren’t ever mentioned in Chronicles before ‘Shadowlands’ came out.
To interject, I’m not at all convinced that Aman’thul is a jerk. Fallible, sure, maybe even deceived by foes to do things which are mistakes; but not a jerk. For example, the myth about pulling out a magic tree seems very prudent and well-measured, given the dangers we know of what unchecked life does to planets, i.e. Draenor. And preventing thraegar from harming the world soul is an ethical point of view (it remains to be seen if it is a better or lesser ethic compared to others…we need more writing) .
If I had to make a metaphor, I view the Titans more like a Lonely Gardener model… whereas the First Ones seem more like a greedy absent shareholder robotic factory farm. I’d throw my ethical lot in with the Titans over the First Ones any day.
Given it seems hinted we’re going to be facing up against the titanforged & the titans themselves — I’m guessing the writing is opting towards Aman’Thul doing all of such more for the wrong reasons (such as their ego and more specifically their own individual vision of how things should be).
But it’d be interesting to see some nuance and various aspects we can agree, then others we don’t so much agree upon.
Personally, I hope we don’t “kill” the titans perse – but moreso just rather shatter their forms & put their spirits in a sleep-like stasis or something — Similarly to what actually happened to them, when Sargeras defeated them the first time around. 
First Ones are probably just Azeroth and Argus. Life and Death. But something happened. Titans could have been something else, while Azeroth is said to be titan or something. Shes mostly a World Soul, something else completely.
They are setting up the Titans to be the main villains of the saga. And that was long coming ever since Algalon tried to destroy the world.
Like others have pointed out before, Algalon did so for the right reasons — Believing life would all suffer, become corrupted then fall under the tyranny of the old-gods.
Fortunately due to Algalon’s nobility & wise-thinking – He could see the futility in such actions & the hope we carried to push pass such potential problems and prevail
Hence why Shadowlands was so great. Like we know now the Titans found a universe that already existed and they made it their mission to press it into their own vision of how things should be. The First Ones however might be the one story piece we need to stitch together the original creation of all that exists. And we can assume the mythology abou Light and Void Clashing is just that. An assumption without evidence.
We’re going to agree to disagree Erevien that Shadowlands was “great”
Personally, I think Shadowlands was anything BUT such … Sure it had a few decent elements, but for the majority most part? 
Nope.