Final Changes

Getting some dev communication was nice. Lots of good changes happened. The trees look good in terms of connections. Still think a few things shouldve happened before tuning focus.

  • Thistle Tea taken out the class tree and replaced with an actually interesting ability. Mastery buff aint it.
  • Sin Rogue still needs echoing blades in the tree.
  • TTB needs to be changed to become an aoe nature damage debuff instead of a 300% ST ability buff.
  • Sub needs Goremaws back. How many other specs dont have their artifacts ability at this point?
  • Edge of Night effect should be made a permanent addition to the Sub tree.
  • SnD should be made passive.

We need SnD being applied only once per fight and being renewed with other finishers

Outlaw renews SnD with Dispatch
Sub renews SnD with Eviscerate
Sin keeps renewing as is

Why treat the same skill differently between its specs?


Should be refreshed by any CP finisher. If youre doing aoe on sin and sub chances are there will be good bits where youre not using Evis and Envenom.

SnD should be a 25 energy spell that gives you increased attack speed and energy regen for 10 seconds. Maintain it for a minute and you can activate again to get a second stack (that cant be refreshed).

Just now wondering why we even spend a GCD to use the ability if it does no damage.

Are you testing this in Beta?

Yes. Why? …

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just wondering, carry on love :kissing_heart:


I’m kinda warming up to the idea of Tea. Should still be somewhere else (like in Cold Blood’s spot), but it does make some sense as an easy option for new rogues. Kinda like training wheels for energy pooling when a fresh assassin is ready to shiv but forgot the energy.

Granted, it could also end up teaching bad energy habits, but at least one would be thinking about energy enough to press the button?

As for SnD, passive for Mut would be fine (no idea about Outlaw), but Sub really needs some other finisher added before they think of removing it. While attack speed isn’t intrinsically fun, its absence felt terrible in Legion. For a spec that was always about planning and setups, just hammering Evisc endlessly was rather one dimensional. Especially given how Sub is generally swimming in energy and combos. At least compared to Mut or Feral lol.


Ive felt the mastery effect should have been added to cold blood. The energy component is absolutely useless for 2/3 specs and even on Assassination drops off once you add a second target. It wouldve made Cold Blood more competitive with Deeper and MfD though.

Sub needs more buttons in general. Secret Technique should be tuned strong enough to be taken no matter the target count and Sub should have another strong builder on CD (Goremaws). The spec is entirely linear in how it plays currently. Will be the easiest spec in DF.

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Adding the mastery to Cold Blood would be good, though I still think it would probably be best if turned back into a pvp talent. That Tea would only be relevant to Mut isn’t that bad compared to multi-role class trees. And while Tea’s value does fall off a cliff with extra targets, it could see some use in pure single target or pvp. Especially early in expac with low haste.

Adding moar buttons to Sub would be good too, but to really replace SnD, it needs a bit more interactivity than just damage. Not that I’d turn down a Secret Tech buff lol, but SnD has traditionally added an extra layer of strategy for Sub pvp. In pve, yea, it’s just a boring boolean thing. But between old Premed/HaT/restealths behind a pillar/etc… getting SnD rolling out of combat was like its own mini game.

Great position, almost everything can be rectified by tuning:

I’m still not sold on the pathing, but at this stage, it is what it is.

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He said this in response to people weighing abilities against each other. That phrase is not true in response to my post. These arent pathing issues, these are abilities that straight up feel good to pick or dont feel good to pick. But youre right in that at this point, probably nothing will be changed in that sense. The mastery addition to thistle tea was honestly a slap in the face.

Pathing; a totally separate issue. It’s something that seems to have been overcome by other developers as evidenced by most class trees.

The abilities not feeling good, either come down to tuning or just outright scrapping an idea. I predict that on release, it won’t be perfect as the work involved in tuning the new trees is huge, the nature of the game allows them to adjust as the game progresses.

I’m still thankful Blizz has dropped the overlapping systems of borrowed power.


I would still like to see Poison Bomb removed and replaced with real aoe to finally give sin some aoe damage. PB aint it and crimson tempest is extremely weak.


CT is the strongest AoE sin rogue has. While Poison bomb should be moved to a charge system that allows more control, CT and FoK is where our aoe comes from. Poison bomb is more of a cleave option as it procs through ST abilities.

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I’m aware CT is the strongest aoe we have. It’s still awful, and as it stands we have the worst aoe in the game. PB just needs to go and be replaced with a better ability. It’s incredibly small and no one else can even see it, so tanks have no idea if they’re moving mobs out of it.

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PB is fine as an ability (ignoring the lack of control over it). Its just consistently been undertuned since Legion. Tuning dev doesnt know what hes doing.

I think the double Vanish charges from the Sub tree should go into the Class tree.

I’m a Sin Rogue doing M+'s and the better the group is, the hard it is to drop combat and go into Stealth, and being able to do that to Garrote without cooldown defines how good that pull will be, so the double Vanish would be an amazing quality of life change for me.
I would have it as a node choose with Shadowstep, and flip it’s current position with Tricks of the Trade, double Shadowstep is cool, but I would trade it for being able to apply more Improved Garrotes.

Also, Vicious Venoms should be applied to Fan of Knives too.

Improved Shiv should go AoE like our 2pc set bonus.

And playing the PTR (no beta?) my energy regeneration seems really bad even with Vigor and Venomous Wound, is that how it will be, just to push us into taking the Tea?

Indiscriminate Carnage is bad, I personally don’t like buttons that play the game for me.

Keeping 5 Ruptures to maximize Scent of Blood means you are not doing anything else but Ruptures.

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Thats precisely the reason why it wouldnt be made a choice node in that way. I could see it as a capstone tho (really i just want thistle tea erradicated). Its a strange idea but solid.

I hadnt thought of this. Basically moving flying daggers over but taking out the range extending component. Its a talent youre likely to take no matter the build so extending its usage is good. Great change and makes room for echoing blades.

Up until this build a lot of stuff wasnt working. Still have to test and see if Deathmark duplicates bleeds (that would completely fix any lack of energy during burst windows) but otherwise we have access to such an array of talents that i dont think energy is of concern. At least not enough to warrant Thistle Tea.

Its why IC was needed. Now we actually have a way to focus one target without spending time setting up when its needed. Scent is big but its not really something you play around similar to the other 3 point talents.

Lol first of all, im amazed we even have 2 vanish charges now to begin with. Zero way that’ll make it to the class tree, and i see in the future this might get nerfed too

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You’re crazy. Poison bomb on live rn is 4% per combo point. On beta with 2/2 it’s 10% per combo point and we can get poison bomb AND crimson tempest.

Our AoE will be fine.