But not every feral is in the upper half of their peers. That’s the entire reason why a parse % exists in the first place. A disproportionate number of high parsing ferals in these threads doesn’t invalidate the experience of the ones who aren’t parsing that well. There will always be players at the 50th percentile.
So you’re right that for the ferals who are superior to their peers, they may have nothing to complain about in terms of output. But that doesn’t mean such ferals aren’t being benched in favor of players on specs with me sought after utility, as Cheesey was recounting in a similar thread. And it doesn’t consider the experience of the ferals who aren’t outperforming their peers or more importantly, their would be peers when applying to another guild.
Your entire argument revolves around ferals needing to outperform their peers. And among the ferals dedicated enough to come to these forums, that may be our experience. But your refusal to consider what the aggregate data informs us about the overall state of the spec doesn’t make those conclusions untrue. When a raid has a melee spot to fill and a 50th percentile feral applies along with a 50th percentile warrior, yet the warrior deals more damage and brings better utility in raid more often than not, the feral isn’t getting the spot.
That’s a skill issue and not a class issue. It becomes a class issue when you’re parsing well, and not being in the upper half ('even then id argue the difference in DPS is a bigger indicator than where you rank, because it may only be 10k dps difference between first and last)
Incorrect. It revolves around them needing to be surrounded by peers of equal skill before they become a detriment to the group
Ive never once refused it and mentioned multiple times what it represents. And it doesnt change the fact that if you are performing well on Feral and out performing the other specs that are supposed to be doing better than you as per your precious aggregated data collection, the Feral isnt the problem nor is it whats holding your group back.
Its the lacking performance from your peers. Fix that before replacing specific specs. You need to get closer to showing what that aggregated data represents before claiming Feral is bad and needs to be benched.
That means if you have a good feral, you need to increase the skill of the players being out peformed by said Feral. Once that happens, and the feral is STILL performing well, but dropping ranks…THEN the feral could be the problem.
Until then, the rest of the group needs to play better
Yes i agree. And this is what im talking about. Equal skill levels. And this rarely happens. On a one to one basis, more often. In group wide event such as a raid, its near impossible to find an entire group perfoming within 5% of one another
That’s not how percentiles work… at all. There will ALWAYS be a group at a given percentile. If the people who were in there 50th percentile improve to get into the 60th percentile, that means players who were above the 50th percentile fell down below where that improving player is. It’s possible for a spec to get higher performance out of the same percentile level if significant portions of that spec improve or there are buffs, but the hierarchy in logs will always remain. That’s how statistics works.
The difference between first and last is certainly important, but we can use the same tools to see that across the entire spectrum feral is struggling compared to other specs.
Yet when presented with logs that showed similar ranked ferals who were closer to the middle or bottom of the pack, the argument was that they needed to get better. When playing poorly they need to git gud, but when playing well it’s fine because they still perform better.
The larger issue is that raw output isn’t the only thing that matters in raiding environments. It’s common for every tank and melee position to be allocated to a raid buff. Even when a feral can outperform a warrior, the DPS saved with a rallying cry during a bad overlap will almost always make up the difference unless that warrior is WELL below the feral’s output.
Nowhere have I seen any feral in here saying the spec needs to be benched, just highlighting that it is oftentimes being benched. You want raid leaders to make decisions that are rooted in possible rather than likely. Yes, it’s very likely in a 2% wipe that numerous things could have gone better and resulted in a kill. But if something like a rallying cry can cover up that deficiency until you get another week of gear, very few raid groups will question the logic off bringing in another warrior.
In any given log the difference between who got selected for mechanics and variances caused by random combat effects like crit can make a larger than 5% difference. That’s why your insistence on pulling individual logs is flawed and why aggregate data is useful.
People are who they are. Wether they parse 10% or 90%. They’d be doing more damage on another class, or he’ll even spec with Moonkin being pretty mid right now.
Every single one of them. Choosing to play feral in the current state is choosing to do less damage than you’re capable of. Full stop.
You can’t control your raid group. You can’t control wether warlocks are OP or who gets PI. You can control what you play. Choosing to play feral right now is actively choosing to hamstring your raid group. Even if every other person is cooking 1% parses, maybe even MORE so in that situation tbh, your personal dps, and thus your raid dps, is lower because you’re choosing to play a clearly inferior spec.
Some people (real people who care about others and not antisocial psychopaths) are conflicted because they want to play feral, because they enjoy the class/theme, but also want to be the best they can be for their raid. Right now, those are competing directives. Play something you enjoy or do the most damage you can for your raid.
And as they ask for a blizzard created problem to be fixed be blizzard, here comes the gaslight brigade to tell them nothing matters because they can get a group for normal raids. Lll.
To what end though?
Just to parse?
That’s your only valid argument.
You wanna be first?
It’s already proven that every boss is killable with every raid spot performing well below 50%
Why are you suddenly pretending it matters?
You’re mad cause feral isn’t top dog?
Fine.
Be mad.
Mad cause feral isnt used for RWF?
Doesn’t concern you.
Thats dumb.
Mad that it’s affecting your run?
Absolutely not.
That’s dumb.
There is nothing stoping them from doing so and being the top contributor on their run.
There are top ranked ferals playing in top ranked guilds (Lightyears above and beyond your level of play) who are pulling their weight. They are by no means the weakest link.
The biggest problem with feral today, is idiots like you who continue to push the stigma.
No. It just means that improving Feral joined that group
If 50k dps was the 50th percentile mark. A Feral jumping from 45k to 60k doesnt knock down the 50k ferals parse percentile. He remains at the 50th while the other went from the 45th to the 60th
In order for the Feral in the 50th percentile with 50k dps to go lower, is for the max to go from.100k to 100k+
Thats how percentiles work. Its a percent off the number 1 spot.
No it was when presented with logs showing them middle of the pack of PARSES (blues) that they need to get better. If youre not parsing oranges, theres room for improvement for yourself with your spec (applies to me too)
No. I want raid leaders to make decisions on reality over possibility. Aka a 75% parsing Feral > 50% parsing warrior.
No. Youre discussing raw damage output. Im discussing everyones skill with their spec. Someone could be doing 120k and a feral doing 100k. 20% difference in raw output, could still be within 5% of each other.
People whom actually play the game competitively: Ferals are performing worse than all the other specs, they need a buff. Even discounting the mechanical difference in performance, the social impact of this balance issue is negatively impacting them and their enjoyment of the game.
Gaslighting White Knight Apologists: Ok, but this particular feral is playing better than these particular 15 people, so it doesn’t matter. You’re the highest dps in your 2/9 guild so give up. You don’t need to have goals when you’re at the top of details man.
Repeat ad nauseum. Every thread. Every time. Nobody’s opinion counts because either they’re not giga parsing chads, so balance doesn’t matter or they are giga parsing chads so they’ll be fine. A neat little logical trick that holds up well thread after thread as long as you never look at it.
Weve already admitted this. Multiple times. But you wont acknowledge because it would ruin your argument. The rest of what you said is just bad strawman
That is not how the percentile system works at all. The 99th percentile means to consider all the data from the top 1% of reports; this is why the number of parses is always included as well because the percentile is heavily affected by that. Every new entry changes the percentile. That’s why log percentiles can move over time even if the max value did not.
: a value on a scale of 100 that indicates the percent of a distribution that is equal to or below it
The point is that you dismiss any discussion on feral struggles regardless how they parse. Parse middle of the road and it’s a git gud issue. Parse high and it’s “well good chunks of your raid are worse than you so they’ll get benched first.”
Which first, requires that the only options being two players with that large of disparity. And second, completely ignores the value of bringing that warrior even if he’s lower performing. The players saved by rallying cry will oftentimes represent far more total damage than the difference between the person being benched and the warrior.
You can easily check this by looking at the logs. Go pull up Kazz on Mythic and rank it by DPS. Theres 1563 logged parses.
According to you, there should be 16 people grouped into the 100% parse right? But theres only 2.
Because low parses arent a feral issue. Youre trying to make it be, but thats a skill issue.
Exactly
Because youre not going to bench your best players, regardless of spec.
Obviously. But thisbis the example youre always using so its what i used.
See now youre dipping back into possibility vs reality. This would require the warrior to know when to use it, be alive to use it, the dps that were “saved” by it to stat alive after the fact, so on and so forth.
If we’re talking possibilities, that Ferals increased raw output could push you last needing (a)nother Rally
No the percentile has nothing to do with the raw output of the specs. All parses are ranked in order of output and then bands are created which reflect the percentile. If there are 1,000 parses, the top 10 are in the 99th percentile. Even if the top parse was 150K and the second parse was 100K, they both would still be in the top 99th percentile.
100th and 0th both can’t work the same as other percentiles because they are the end of the scale. Technically only one parse should ever be the 100th percentile since that means the absolute best. Perhaps the players had the exact same output.
I’m doing no such thing. At every level, druids parsing in the same percentile as every other spec do less damage. That doesn’t matter whether the two parses in question are high, medium, or low, feral loses out with the current raid and tuning.
Which again requires the feral player to be one of the best players in the raid.
And isn’t even correct except in extreme cases of different output. Many specs get spots due to the utility they bring, others do not. The ones that don’t rely solely on performance which isn’t entirely in their control even if they’re orange parsing.
Does a 0% parse even exist?! Mathematically it would be a 0 ouput.
And youre right. I concede the point. They do break it into groupings. I think it would be better to go % based off the top to better guage as theres over a 10% variance in damage in the 99th percentile alone, which it does make sense.
But performing at 88% of #1 shouldnt group you into that 99th percentile.
Oh well.
You’re confusing them. Parses dont compare you to other specs. Just your performance to others of the same spec. So a low parse cannot be a feral problem. Its strictly a skill issue.
Balance and tuning pits you against other specs. And i dont believe anyoje has spoken against feral getting some attention. We’ll have to see what next week brings.
Actually its quite common in the majority of raids that involve a Feral. Perks ti mow representation
Honestly I think both would provide meaningful input. Percentage of top would give insight into the true potential of the spec which would be nice, but it’s also subject to all kinds of degeneracy. It’s not really useful to know how well you can perform against the person at the top who had 100% PI uptime from being in a raid with 12 priests, but that absolutely would happen.
Percentile at least insulates those outliers to get you a pretty good idea of how you’re doing.
What I was saying was that if you take someone on a different spec that has the same parse percentile, it’s a pretty decent approximation of output against another spec when performed at similar quality.
What does percentile mean then, if I need to go back to school, exactly?