Feedback: Warlock Updates

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Warlocks in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Thank You

Before we continue testing The War Within, we’d like to take a moment to thank everyone who read and responded to the Hero Talent previews we posted over the last few months.

Looking to the Alpha

In this first Alpha build, every single class has at least one new Hero Talent tree available for testing, with the rest coming in the following weeks. We’re asking testers to initially keep several things in mind:

  • There are UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI)
  • New spell visuals and audio for several new Hero Talent trees are still a work in progress. Many trees are using placeholder assets for now that will be updated over the course of Alpha.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus right now that we are prioritizing over other concerns such as tuning or generic class updates/maintenance:

  • Finish building the remainder of the Hero Talent trees that are not yet available.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

With the Alpha build being playable and all of the discussion that will occur around the flood of data, we wanted to reiterate that the responses to our blog previews were highly valuable. The feedback we received allowed us to make some early improvements or revisions while we didn’t yet have a public test environment. It allowed us to take some big early swings on certain trees, and then react to early feedback quickly.

Going forward, we aren’t planning to publish any additional Hero Talent previews in blog form, since we’ll add the remaining classes to the Alpha as soon as they reach their ready-to-test state.

Working from Feedback

Several Hero Talent trees have received changes after reading feedback to the blog posts. Some of these were tuning changes to ensure that the Hero Talent tree felt competitive, while others were significant design changes. The feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Going into Alpha, we feel good about the shape of the Hero Talent tree designs. Keeping a consistent number of utility and defensives nodes across all trees, having parity between number of choice nodes, and the overall structure of the trees are things we’re confident in.

We’re also working on tweaking some core class designs as well. In some cases, it was necessary to make adjustments to the class or specialization talent trees before significant work was done on a Hero Talent tree. In other cases, we did work seeking to improve base class talent tree designs.

Alpha Feedback

Now that we’re in Alpha, we’re looking for feedback on how it feels to playtest these trees. We’re specifically curious about:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree.
  • Hero Talents that create frustrating or unsatisfying gameplay or rotations for your spec.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.

Throughput comparisons of Hero Talent trees are helpful, but we’re more interested in gameplay, feel, and choice feedback at this stage. Also, when possible, we appreciate it when you focus posts or articles on a single spec and Hero Talent tree, rather than combining feedback about multiple issues.

Again, Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback on Hero Talent trees and are very excited for you to see everything else we’re working on. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

9 Likes

Greetings Warlocks,

We’ve been very excited to see the community’s reactions to the Warlock Hero Talents, and we appreciate all of your feedback.

In the coming weeks, you’ll see multiple changes to the Warlock class and specialization trees, and we’d like to provide some context for these changes here.

Core Goals

  • Ensure each capstone is interesting and exciting.
  • Reduce the amount of throughput talents, to free up utility choices.
  • Reduce the number of ranks for talents that don’t warrant multiple ranks.

Affliction
The Affliction specialization tree forces a choice between a single-target or multi-target profile rather than providing a viable build that is adaptable in both situations. We want to redesign, introduce, and remove talents, as well as address the tuning of Malefic Rapture to help reduce this friction.

Demonology
For Demonology, we want to address the number of long cooldowns available as well as reduce the amount of resource flooding. We’ll also look at underused talents such as Doom. The feedback provided during Season 3 was instrumental in helping illuminate a path forward for Doom, and you should expect a redesign of it in a future build.

Destruction
For Destruction, we have plans to reduce the fluctuation in power based on target count. We also want to take another look at how Destruction plays in multi-target situations and look for ways to improve underused talents such as Cataclysm and Soulfire.

More to come
As always, we’re reading feedback and discussing other changes. We’re still monitoring discussions about Hero Talents, and will make adjustments as needed.

Thank you for your thoughts thus far. We look forward to hearing more as development progresses!

33 Likes

This post will contain feedback on Diabolist talents as well as how they interact with the current state of warlock talent trees as a PvE player. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

General Diabolist

  • Currently I can only have 1 Diabolic Ritual up at a time. The first part of Cruelty of Kerxan is useless if I can’t have 2 Rituals up at once and in it’s current state I would never choose it over Infernal Machine.
  • Currently I can proc a Demonic Art with Soulburn which is the only off-GCD soul shard spender. There’s a world where that’s the optimal way of doing it, which would be weird gameplay and very unsatisfying.
  • Currently I can proc a Demonic Art by casting a shard spender that starts before Diabolic Ritual ends and completes once the Demonic Art is available. I like this interaction but the cast speed reduction part of Touch of Rancora is nullified. It feels bad to lose out on this by minmaxing my Diabolic Ritual uptime.
  • Touch of Rancora has no buff or way of tracking it other than seeing my Demonic Art is up.
  • If there are any pauses in gameplay (long runs between packs in Mythic+, boss flying away or hold DPS phases), my Demonic Art can fade and I would miss out on it’s benefits. That would be very frustrating.
  • I won’t reject Flames of Xoroth as it’s more damage, but I find it very uninspiring. Considering it’s position on the tree, it’s also unsatisfying.
  • As a PvE player Annihilan’s Bellow has minimal value for me outside of niche scenarios as a last resort for AoE CC. Other classes have better options that don’t sacrifice a decent personal heal in Mortal Coil. I would take Soul-Etched Circles in 99% of cases, and even then it would feel extremely minor since I am taking Soulburn in all scenarios.
  • Both Infernal Vitality and Infernal Bulwark are unsatisfying to me. Warlocks are especially near-unkillable while Unending Resolve is up, and the additional defensive power on top of it is nice but not too useful.
    • I would rather see a node like Mage’s “Merely a Setback” that activates outside of Warlock’s defensives so I can spread my tankiness out.

Diabolist Demonology

  • Abyssal Dominion is great, but it’s confusing to me why it’s on the hero tree rather than in the Demonology spec tree (or even baked into Grimoire: Felguard, as I’ll almost never pass up more or longer GFGs).
  • Gloom of Nathreza also feels a bit out of place on the tree. I think it and Malefic Impact on the spec tree feel like two parts of one talent. I’d like to see another node that interacts with Rituals or Arts so it fits in the theme of the rest of Diabolist.
  • Touch of Rancora says it buffs my “next Soul Shard spending ability”. Currently it doesn’t seem to include Dreadstalkers, Vilefiend, Grimoire: Felguard, or Nether Portal. Not sure if this is intended.
    • If not, this talent can just read “increases the damage of your next Hand of Gul’dan…”
    • If intended, my Tyrant setup now needs to be timed with the end of a Demonic Ritual so that one of my Tyrant extended demons benefit from Touch of Rancora (which one dependent on tuning). Unsure if this is the intended effect.

Diabolist Destruction

  • Abyssal Dominion requires Cataclysm to be picked on the Destruction spec tree. Also, the Overfiend’s Chaos Bolts do not benefit from my mastery or apply Eradication so it’s really just a throughput node with no interaction.
    • Although Overfiend’s effect is solely single target, it is especially frustrating to talent Cataclysm in single target scenarios. The position of this talent currently requires me to path through 2 talents that are useless on single target,
    • It blocks me from speccing into Inferno, a large part of Destruction’s shard economy in AoE.
  • Gloom of Nathreza has some value in single target with Cry Havoc depending on tuning, but it’s always felt bad to cast Havoc in single target scenarios as I want to keep building and spending shards.
12 Likes

This post will contain feedback on Hellcaller talents as well as how they interact with the current state of warlock talent trees as a PvE player. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

General Hellcaller

  • This tree has 2 passive damage nodes in Xalan’s Ferocity and Xalan’s Cruelty. These are boring and unsastisfying.
  • Blackened Soul adds flavour to Wither, but in the end it’s just more damage and not much to be played around
    • I want my Withers to be acute as much as possible, and because it can become acute randomly when gaining stacks I can’t build up a large Wither either).
    • With 2 major mechanics of the Hellcaller tree, there isn’t much to be frustrated or unsatisfied about, but also not much to be hyped about.
  • Malevolence on the GCD feels bad, even if it does a bit of damage. Apart from that, I’m happy both specs are getting a short cd haste steroid.
  • Curse of the Satyr is nice in that it’s 2 minutes over baseline 1 minute curses. It’s alternative Aura of Enfeeblement is extremely underwhelming, wanting me to trade 1 of my 2 personals for 8 seconds of AoE curses which sounds never worth it.
  • Zevrim’s Resilience is very unsatisfying and it’s purpose is confusing. Aside from tuning, I feel near invincible with dark pact up.
    • Like Infernal Vitality/Infernal Bulwark in the Diabolist tree, I would much rather see something that spreads out my tankiness outside my defensives like Mage’s “Merely a Setback”.
  • Illhoof’s Design sounds like almost always the better choice, stacking with Demon Skin for a potential 30% max hp Soul Leech. Only situations where I wouldn’t consider taking this is on a fight with a lot of rot damage (where I wouldn’t be able to stack Soul Leech) along with big hits (where I want a bigger Dark Pact).

Hellcaller Destruction

  • Wither doesn’t currently interact with Internal Combustion. Assuming it will, there could be an interaction here with Hatefury Rituals allowing me to generate more Wither stacks through Seeds of Their Demise, but without testing it sounds like I may not have enough GCDs constantly refreshing Wither and having to still generate and spend shards as my priority.
  • Wither doesn’t interact with Channel Demonfire, rendering this talent and Raging Demonfire unusable. I assume everything that interacts with Immolate will eventually work with Wither as well.
  • In Malevolence, the extra stack of wither only interacts with Chaos Bolt which feels limiting. I’d like to see Shadowburn be added at least.

Hellcaller Affliction

  • I don’t have much feedback here as Wither is just a Corruption that does more damage. There are a few bugs with Seed of Corruption/Sow the Seeds, so I’ll save feedback until those are sorted and we see what’s in store for Affliction with the talent updates.
  • Malevolence on the GCD feels worse for Affliction than Destruction, as my baseline Darkglare window is also 20s long, same as Malevolence.
8 Likes

This post will contain feedback on Soul Harvester talents as well as how they interact with the current state of warlock talent trees as a PvE player. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

General Soul Harvester

  • Currently the Succulent Soul buff can stack but spending shards consumes both stacks. I’m unsure what the intended result here is supposed to be (not meant to stack? spending shards only consumes 1 stack? spending X shards consumes X stacks?).
  • Affliction and Demonology’s shard generation is vastly different. I hope the proc rate of Succulent Souls will account for this (as well as Feast of Souls through Quietus).
  • The current proc rate of Feast of Souls through Quietus seems extremely low. It feels very unsatisfying to get 1 soul shard every few minutes from 2 hero talents in single target, especially for Affliction.
  • When proccing Soul Anathema while it’s up, I lose the remainder of the original effect and get a fresh 10s Soul Anathema. It feels bad to lose value on the damage when I play my rotation properly. It’s especially noticeable during Shadow of Death windows.
  • Spirited Away offers increased movement speed in exchange for a 1 minute cd. There may be niche cases where this could be picked but in 99% of scenarios, baseline 50% movement speed is enough and no cd burning rush is way more preferable. If anything 1 minute cd feels too long for the benefit.
  • Like Soul-Etched Circles, Gorebound Fortitude feels not very valuable as I always have Soulburn talented. It does have more value for Affliction than Demonology considering shard economy.

Soul Harvester Affliction

  • Succulent Soul and Tormented Crescendo mechanics partially overlap in that both give free Malefic Raptures although worded differently. If both are up both get consumed by 1 Rapture. I’m unsure what the intended result is supposed to be.
  • Succulent Soul and Shadow of Death increases the value of Malefic Rapture in AoE by a huge amount. This will split Affliction’s AoE between Rapture and Seed of Corruption which doesn’t feel intuitive.
    • Perhaps this will change with the upcoming talent updates, but with the amount of bugs Sow the Seeds currently has and has had, I’d prefer Sow get deleted and Seed of Corruption only used for spreading Corruption (with Rapture as the spender for single target and AoE).
  • Soul Anathema and Shared Fate are technically “damage over time/periodic effects”, but do not work with Malefic Rapture or any of the periodic damage amps on the Affliction tree. It’s not made clear to me that these are not “real DoTs” (although expected)
  • Nightfall is a required talent node if I want to play Soul Harvester. Luckily it’s high up enough in the tree that it’s always picked.
  • Haunt is another required pick for Mantle of the Harvester.
  • With Shadow of Death, Soul Rot is mandatory to take, and Soul-Eater’s Gluttony feels mandatory. Considering Soul Rot’s position on the tree as a “capstone ability”, it severely limits my other capstone options.

Soul Harvester Demonology

  • Mantle of the Harvester offers Nightfall for Aff, Wild Imp damage for Demonology single target and extra cores for Demonology multitarget. While all 3 are good benefits, it feels a bit bad that Demonology doesn’t gain any resources in single target.
  • The second part of Necrolyte Teachings is confusing. Through testing using Power Siphon grants your next 2 Demonbolts additional damage, but the wording is unclear.
12 Likes

I will mostly be providing feedback for base demonolgy warlock, and for Diabolist, as those are the two I have most experience with. First will be my opinion, then my proposed fix, and then a “TLDR” afterwards, best way I can make sure stuff has full explanations, while also having a short and to the point option.

Warlock Base
It feels odd having Demonic circle be the starting talent for demonology, when fel domination is right there, a talent copied from the original Demonology tree.
I really feel Destro should start with burning rush, demonic circle affliction, fel dom demonolgy.
Make Fel dom default for demo, Demonic circle aff, and Burning rush destro

Implosion, Implosion is such a monster when it comes to using it, the skill ceiling is so extremly high when it comes to knowing when to and when not to use it.

  • My Fix- Make it a choice node, one is implosion, the other a passive version of implosion. When your imps run out they will implode themselves. I think it is a fair trade off, the loss of the burst damage of implosion, for the gain of the implosion damage itself. As knowing I can never truly be fully efficient with my implosions does not feel great, nor does running imp gang boss without implosion, as the talent is just kinda massivly weaker without using it.

Add a passive choice node of implosion that makes it just happen to imps at end of life

Demon bolt is only ever hard-cast for pre-pull, otherwise casting it normally is pointless, and I think demon bolt should be altered slightly to just make it better to use overall. It really is annoying constantly accidentally starting cast on this ability for one reason or another. And with how super quick our spec has become with high haste values, and now with this 50% cast time reduction on hero talents, it gets way too much.

  • My Fix- Make demonic cores charges, have it just right out not be able to be cast unless you have demonic cores, it will also make it easier to see how many demonic cores you have, instead of having to keep an eye on a buff.

Make demon bolt a charge based spell, remove the hardcast ability of it entirely

Less RNG please, Random soulshards from soul strike, random soulshards from Soul conduit, and the RNG behind demonic cores.
So much RNG, it makes Demonolgy TOO MUCH of what I can best describe as a whack a mole spec. it just feels awful when you finish casting a hand of guldan and quickly go to demonbolt, but uh oh you got lucky and now suddenly have wasted soul shards. It just does not feel good when it happens, and we feel encouraged to stop dps to make sure we don’t over-shard.

  • My Fix- If anything make soul strike have a chance to trigger soul coundit, and make soul conduit when it triggers make your next cast cost 1 less shard, this way you know ahead of time and can pre-plan, instead of it being retroactive, make it pro-active.
    Or another option? Soul conduit shards can go over 5. So if you gain soul conduit shards, they are additional, they do not fill your normal 5 shard cap, instead they are “floating” and will be used on your next cast that does not “normally” have enough shards. (have 2 normal, and 1 floating? cast hand of guldan all 3 are used) This way these abilities feel additions, instead of retroactive removals.
    Really I would prefer something entirely different then these random soul shards, but if we must stick with it, atleast reducing the RNG would be nice. As the highs and lows are too much. Times you get no procs and then the procs you do are wasted, or you get CONSTANT procs and suddenly blast.

Make soul conduit + soulstrike less punishing by adding “Floating shards” or making your next spell cost less, instead of refunding. Or just right out replace

Make Demonic Tyrant good again. People have been running “Naked tyrant” where we take none of the talents for them, cause it is just so bad. As the main themed DPS cooldown for the spec, it is so obscene it is just, useless. You only take it to boost the duration of your felguard.

  • My Fix- Soulbound tyrant should be built in, and the final talents just need some work.

Make Tyrant strong again, it is our main DPS cooldown afterall.

Doom and it’s follow up just need rework or removal. If anything make it work like it did in legion where doom is just applied by hand of guldan, as is it has never been used in all of dragonflight.

Make doom good or replace it

Ok now onto
Diabolist Feedback
Ok so first off these hero talents feel amazing, but I feel there is a few spots it is lacking, and really needs some work.

Overall- This is the “demon spec” as both destro and demo still have heavy influence with demons, and because of this I quite enjoy how the spec summons these huge demons. But a few things do not make sense and could really be altered, and super easily too, simply by changing “+damage to basic ability” to “Basic ability does this demon thingy” Examples later
Another issue is the spec just seems to play more into demonolgies two major issues with the spec. The whack a mole playstyle, which is good in small amounts, but has become more and more the ENTIRE playstyle. And the aspect that we are demonologists, we should be summoning more, and stronger demons, and yet some things here just feel like typical “buff X ability” when it should be “Buff Y demon”

Nothing here buffs our wrathguard, and too many abilities that have no effect on our demons

Animations for the overlord and ruination take too long, especially bad since they are aoe, but focus on 1 specific target. The issue comes when that target dies before this loooong animation finishes, causing the abilities to just wiff.

Too long animations on overfiend and ruination

Soul-Etched Circles. While cool it just makes demonic circle better, it does not change anything, it just means you do not need to soulburn it. This feels a bit lame, and I think I would prefer if instead it had the effect of Soul Burning Demonic Gateway.

  • My Fix- Diabolist is all about opening portals and summoning giant demons, and the major focus on both destro and demo’s summoning aspect, I think being able to instantly open a demonic gateway is much more interesting, fun, and thematic.
    As a M+ player, I really find little use of demonic gateway, as it requires settup, and only really in raid and arenas is this viable to do frequently. I really feel that having this spec just make demonic gateway instant would be so much better. Especially as it would be quite interesting to see it used in more tight scenarios.

Soul etched circles should give demonic gateway soulburn instead of circle.

Annihilan’s Bellow is just an issue of so few people if anyone takes howl of terror, especially since it competes with mortal coil. It feels weird having hero talents that not only require you to take a specific talent elsewhere, but also a specific talent that is a choice node. If you wish to keep it as is, also give it a buff for mortal coil. Maybe longer range and some damage, or more healing, or heck even a cooldown reduction.
Needs to effect mortal coil as well, or be replaced

Cruelty of Kerxan just does not seem useful, not only do you always have diabolic ritual up pretty much, making the first half of this effect pointless, but 3 second shorter duration is basically nothing as we already reduce its duration extremely quickly, especially since the other talent infernal machine far outpreforms it. But really both of these talents being about reducing its cooldown. I think it would be more interesting to have them be different style. Or make it so cruelty of kerxan lets you have 2 rituals up at once, or I guess 3.

  • My Fix- I think if anything it right out should just always decrease the countdown by a couple seconds. This way you can pick a more “overall passive reduction” or a “bursty reduction based around our major dps cooldown” Or let Cruelty of Kerxan give you multiple rituals.

Not good at all, needs rework/replace

Touch of Rancora is cool, but the whiplash of casting at a normal speed, and then BOOM 50% castspeed bonus, and suddenly a spell is done WAY faster then you expect, feels almost more of a debuff then a buff. Right now it is not too much of an issue, but I have done testing with the most amount of haste I could get, and during bloodlust, and it just gets way too fast, and while fast specs are fun, demonolgy is an edge case because of it’s whack a mole nature.

  • My Fix- Make touch of rancora more unique, Instead buff its damage by 100%, and give it a +50% bonus. Multistrike was great, and seeing it back in a talent like this would be great, so make the ability proc CB/RoF/DS/HoG cast a second time at 50% power. As is because of how it works it makes it just feel awkward at times, especially since it reduces the cast time by 50%, but there is a fair few soulshard costing spells that consume this, that don’t have a cast time.

The bonus cast speed makes the spec feel clunky

Ruination is amazing, but as is it has no cap. This makes ruination in a bit of a nerve wracking place. as just a MASSIVE aoe damage, this will encourage us to use it on bigger and bigger and bigger pulls. I was kind of suprised to see this without a damage cap, and while I normally do not like those, I do really like what has been done with a lot of abilities/trinkets/etc in dragonflight. “X damage split between all hit enemies, but more enemies hit buffs the damage” this means it is good for both single target, and aoe.

  • My Fix- Ruination is literally a fel meteor, and with meteors being a common soak mechanic, I really think the ability could do with a large damage buff, at the cost of “splits damage between all targets hit, but increases damage slightly per target hit” as this ability is INSANE for large aoe, but when used on a single target is just “good” and as this big cooldown part of our rotation, it does feel it could use some help.

  • I want a fel version of the beacon to the beyond is what I am saying lol.
    Oh also, ruination is this BIG fel meteor, and yet it just summons 3 wild imps, making it basically a silly strong hand of guldan. I feel it would be cooler if it just right out summoned imp gang bosses, even without the talent. Just to give it that more OOMPF

Ruination should be damage split among targets but deal more per target hit, and also should summon more then just 3 imps.

Now while this would normally be under base Warlock, I put it here cause it is effected even more by diabolist.
Nether portal, not fun, I do not like, nor do many people, it is a cool theme but how it works, how it plays, it is just so awkward. I feel like this ability should work like how grand warlock design tyrant used to work. Now that tyrant lost its old version, give it to nether portal. Nether portal should just summon a set amount of demons, including a pitlord at the end. No soulshard spam during it, as it just means a cooldown you pump EVERYTHING into, however you can cheese to do so.

  • My Fix- I think it should be the opposite, we should be using our soulshards after nether portal, in order to reduce its cooldown. Where it summons a few imps, then stronger and stronger demons, ending with the pitlord! and then you spend shards to refill your energy so you can summon the portal again. Make it more of a frequent burst, then a long cooldown MEGA BURST. as it is now.

  • Now what does this have to do with diabolist? well both cruelty of kerxan and infernal machine proc off it. Which is odd as destro only gets infernal, but demonolgy gets both nether portal and demonic tyrant? This makes diabolist players sorta encouraged if not forced to go nether portal and tyrant. Which just is not fun, the amount of talents here that force players into specific talent choices in the tree is just too much. Yes the demon focused spec buffing grimoire felguard for demo makes sense, and that is high enough up the tree it is fine. But when we are at the bottom with our limited points, forcing us into nether portal and tyrant sorta brute forces demo locks out of the right side, which I really like, I love the “big strong wrathguard” builds, always have, even in SoD I have been working to make demon focused builds and can’t wait for the black book eventual drop.

Nether portal should lose the soulshard to summon more demons mechanic, and instead use soulshard consumption to reduce it’s cooldown, or should be replaced, maybe with metamorphasis? But also it should be removed from the diabolist talents

But the lack of demon synergy in this spec is just bizzare, and I love what you have done overall here, the overfiend, the mother, the pitlord, super amazing play and theme, but the things around them are odd at times. The fact that the ONLY talent in diabolist that actually effects our demonic pet is flames of xoroth, 2% increased demon damage. Is just confusing. I was really hoping for more. Heck even a second pet, 2 imps for destro, 2 wrathguards for demo. Would be insanely cool.

3 Likes

WAR WITHIN ALPHA FEEDBACK

WARLOCK

“MEELOH”

Hello, I am Meeloh. I have been playing the game since late TBC. Started maining Warlock since WOTLK and have also played Rogue last couple of expansions. My favorite spec is Affliction but can play all specs at a high level. In this document, I will give you my feedback regarding the Warlock class (especially Affliction). I apologize in advance if it turns out to be a long read.

  1. AFFLICTION

  2. Make DOTs matter again. It has been a long time since DOTs have really been the bulk of our damage. I understand Malefic Rapture does work with the amount of DOTs applied to a target but at the end of the day, it is the bursty direct damage ability doing all the work. It makes our class feel like a bursty spec instead of a sustained DPS the way it used to be.

  3. UA on multiple targets. I don’t understand why Unstable Affliction can only be casted on 1 target. It makes for good gameplay and a difference in skill cap juggling DOTs on multiple targets. Seed spam is good and all but we want to feel our class fantasy of draining the enemies life slowly. Sure it would be pointless when mobs die too quickly but for that scenario we would have “seed spam” as an alternative.

  4. Shard generation. Affliction soul shard generation is abysmal (especially in ST). The current state of tier set and forced talents (Soul Rot) makes it so we HAVE to spend 3 soul shards every 30 seconds in order to dish out our damage. I know it’s your job to come up with solutions but here are a couple of suggestions anyway. A) Make it so refreshing DoTs during Pandemic window has a high chance go generate 1 soul shard. B) UA ticks also have a chance to generate Soul Shard. C) Darkglare significantly increases soul shard generation while it’s active.

  5. Baseline Soul Swap. Current Soul Swap is so bad that we are forced to take it just to reach other talents and it is hardly ever pressed at all. Make it cost no shard and copy/paste DoTs to a different target. Also, make it interact with Soulburn so that pressing SB:SS immediately puts up Agony, Corruption and Siphon Life on our target for the cost of 1 soul shard. (Like back in MoP)

  6. Darkglare? Darkglare is one of the lowest impact 2 minute CDs in the game. The damage is so low that sometimes it gets outdamaged by random procs like Inquisitor’s Gaze. Make it so it does way more damage or while it’s active it makes our DoTs do double damage or tick faster or it gives the Warlock haste or something like that

  7. Dread Touch vs Doom Blossoms. This capstone talent is mandatory for all content since it provides over 10% increased damage to either ST or AoE respectively. It feels terrible having to choose between these 2 options since we sacrifice so much damage. Combine them into 1 single capstone or move Doom Blossoms elsewhere.

  8. Siphon Life. Siphon Life currently feels very underwhelming to press. Its only reason to exist is for it to benefit Malefic Rapture’s burst. Increase its damage significantly AND make it so whenever casting Vile Taint or Phantom Singularity it makes our next Siphon Life apply to 5 targets. This way it contributes to aoe/dungeon content as well as ST.

  9. Shadow’s Embrace. I think the whole stacking 3x only from Shadow Bolt or Drain Soul ticks takes forever. It makes our opener rotation in dungeons especially feel clunky and very unrewarding. Most other specs can do double or triple or even more damage while we are still applying DoTs and stacking SE. I vote to remove it entirely or make another spell apply it and make it only 1 stack = 10% increased damage.

  10. Malefic Grasp - I would really like to see this ability return in some form. It used to be a spell that while channeling our DoT’s would do more damage (I think it used to be 20%). Maybe it could have a CD or could cost like 3 shards or something like that so it wouldn’t be overpowered or force us to stay standing all fight like a turret.

  11. Forced Talents. Haunted Soul feels great to play if our DoTs would actually do damage. Hopefully, this capstone will not require us to waste 2 points on the prior node “Seized Vitality”. Inevitable Demise is so undertuned AND it requires 2 whole points to get AND it helps unlock other very important talents. Please remove it or buff it or move it somewhere else. Maybe make it work with Drain Soul instead. That way there’s more benefit spending those points there.

I did not come up with all these ideas on my own. This is a list that I put together after analyzing my favorite spec in the game and listening and talking to people that are way better at the game than me. This is it for now but I will write more feedback once we can properly test all the new Hero Talents for a while and see how they feel.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read.

-Meeloh

4 Likes

Greetings Warlocks,

Today, we have various Core and Affliction tree changes hitting the Alpha. We want to take a moment to go a bit more in depth as to what certain changes were made and why. As a refresher, here are the goals for our Core and Afflictions that we posted last week along with some additional goals that we can dig into here.

Class

  • Ensure each capstone is interesting and exciting.
  • Reduce the amount of throughput talents, to free up utility choices.
  • Reduce the number of ranks for talents that don’t warrant multiple ranks.

Affliction

  • Address the tuning of Malefic Rapture in single-target and multi-target situations.
  • Reduce complexity and the amount of active buttons that contribute to it.
  • Erase the need to choose between a single-target or multi-target profile by adding more adaptability and flexibility.

While we cannot go over every change here, we’d like to get a bit more detailed than last week’s update and explain some of the bigger changes coming in this build.

Class Tree Throughput
We’re removing a lot of throughput talents from the class tree to allow warlocks to pick up more utility without feeling forced to take mandatory talents to be competitive. These talents aren’t compelling options when placed against utility as they will always be the right answer to have. This allows us to move that power into the specialization trees and tailor throughput-centric talents to be specific to that specialization’s gameplay.

Malefic Rapture
In addition to becoming baseline for Affliction, we are introducing new talents that will help Malefic Rapture become the go-to spender for both single-target and multi-target situations. This should also shift Seed of Corruption to being a means to apply Corruption to multiple targets rather than what you spam in dungeons. In addition, we are redesigning Siphon Life to be friendlier to Affliction’s rotation and expect that its new design will make it easier to optimize Malefic Rapture.

Affliction’s Adaptability
While we do want Affliction warlocks to have a preferred talent setup for single- versus multi-target situations, we don’t want it to feel like they are powerless if they are in the opposite situation. By focusing on Malefic Rapture being Affliction’s main spender and removing talents that are only valuable in multi-target situations (Soul Flame, Soul Swap, Doom Blossom, etc.), we’re hoping that the Affliction tree feels less punishing to fill out.

Is This It?
Not at all. We expect to make changes based on feedback and our own playtesting. We want to get the ball rolling on changes we knew we want to make, so we could start the discussion early on and make adjustments before The War Within launches.

Thank you all for the continued discussions and we look forward to your feedback!

12 Likes

The capstones supposed to mean something, but soul conduit has been nerfed and is not that exciting of a capstone.
Soul burn is still soul burn, so good it is pretty much required.

Pact of gluttony is cool, but still feels like it needs a bit more umph. Like maybe no charges, just for you it becomes an ability, no bag usage, no charges. Still can share with everyone else using soul well, but conjure health stone is now a passive that grants demonic health stone.
Even with it being “you can use healthstone multiple times per combat” it definitely feels like it could still use something else that makes it better then a normal healthstone mechanically, like more healing, an absorb shield, or a slight speedboost.

Otherwise new tree changes are good, I do miss inquisitors eye and jailer though (Ok they were interesting, but really could use a rework if brought back), I do feel like bringing them back would be good, especially as we don’t get ANY dps abilities on our tree now, all of them are utility, defensive, mobility.

Our only output talents in our class tree now are.
Demon attack speed 5%
Demon damage 5%
Wildimp/Immolate/Agony damage 20%(16%)
Shadowbolt/drainsoul/incinerate damage 16%(10%)
You/demon crit 5%
Soulshard 5% chance to refund

It all just feels rather lame compared to stuff like Death Knight, which gets.
Soul reaper, Empower rune weapon, Abomination Limb, Unholy Bond, Rune Mastery, Icy Talons, Unholy Ground, Runic Attenuation, Might of Thassarian, Merciless Strikes, Brittle, Sacrifical Pact, Cleaving Strikes, Raise dead.
Those are just the DK’s throughput talents in their tree.

I think the warlock tree invests a bit too much into “Unlock a ton of utility” and lacks interesting throughput talents. I agree a tree having too many can be bad, but I think before these changes it coulda done with even more throughput really.

Swift Arttiface feels like it should instead just be a big buff for soulstone, as you really only cast that in combat anyways, so having it just be 50% cast speed on it, and maybe when they revive give them a big shield or something?

Curses being required to unlock the 10% stamina is odd too, as even if you have no want for those curses (especially as curses have become impossible to tell what they do/do not work on) you still take it anyways, cause 2 points for +10% stamina is huge when you can easily get every single throughput talent in your tree.

Like with death knights, like with many other classes, I should kinda have to choose if I want to take this throughput talent, or that one, I can’t take all of them. But with our current tree there is so few you take all of them, then from there just decide what utility/defensives you want.
Just testing with the tree, I can have all of the throughput talents as early as 24/31 of our points. Meaning I can grab every throughput talent, and still have 7 points leftover to do with what I wish.
With DK, I am able to get all of the above listed throughput, minus only 2 of those talents. Spending all 31 of my talents to get as many throughput as I can, but because there are so many of them, I can’t even get them all.

Just to go through all of the ones I have issue with.
Howl of Terror is only useful in PVP, which is fine, but the fact is gets a talent in Diabolist but Mortal coil does not, is odd.
Abyss walker, 4% less damage for 10 seconds after teleporting? That could be 10% easily and it would still see lack of use.
Curses of enfeeblement Really should not be a talent at all, these should be baseline. Or move it to where amplify curse is, and just bake in teachings of the satyr.
Resolute barrier Still just way too niche, such a short cooldown reduction with such a long cooldown while also requiring a pretty decent chunk of damage taken.
Demonic resilience This should be way higher in the tree, heck put it where curses is now, cause this thing competes with all the capstone talents, and yet all it does is reduce your chance to be crit by 4%, and increases your demons damage resist by 16%.
Pretty good, but 2 talent points? idk if it is worth for example giving up 20% wild imp damage.

Overall I like the changes you have made so far, but still see some problem spots that really need polishing, and some of the new stuff just seems odd.

11 Likes

Greetings Warlocks.

You’re going to see some Demonology changes in the War Within Alpha build today, alongside some additional changes to Affliction, Hellcaller, and Soul Harvester.

Destruction Warlocks – we’re working on changes for you that will become available for testing in a future build.

Here’s some context for the Demonology changes you’ll find in this build. As a refresher, here are the goals we previously stated for Demonology:

  • Reduce the amount of resources Demonology generates.
  • Redesign Doom to be an attractive talent choice.
  • Reduce the amount of major cooldowns Demonology has access to.

Demonic Cores
Over the course of Dragonflight, we’ve wanted to and tried to reduce the number of Demonic Cores available to Demonology warlocks to rein in their mobility, resource generation, and reduce the amount of rotational time spent going back and forth between Hand of Gul’dan and Demonbolt only. In addition, we want Demonbolt to return to being a moment rather than be your primary rotational button.

With these goals in mind, we are removing Demonic Knowledge to reduce the frequency of Demonic Cores and will make further adjustments down the road if the rate of Demonic Cores remains too high. Over the course of alpha and beta we will be tuning Demonology to compensate for this change.

Doom
This is our first iteration of Doom going into The War Within and will be iterating based off feedback we receive. We wanted to try bringing back a castable version of Doom, rather than a proc, while avoiding making it required to cast Doom multiple times before being able to perform your rotation. At the same time though, we want you to think about how you use Doom and when it is cast rather than bring back an effect like Hand of Doom that makes it largely passive.

Nether Portal
In this alpha build of The War Within, you’ll see that Nether Portal has been removed. While we love the fantasy that Nether Portal provides and that it created a moment that felt different rotationally, its gameplay and performance proved difficult to optimize. Too many major cooldowns can increase the number of peaks and valleys Demonology’s output can experience and how much effect the duration of an encounter can have on its performance.

We’d like to spend some time workshopping a new design for Nether Portal and have it return as a healthier addition to Demonology’s toolkit in the future.

What’s Next?
We’ll continue to read through feedback and the discussions happening across the community. As mentioned last week, these changes are by no means final, and we plan to iterate based off your thoughts and our own playtesting. Thank you for the discussions thus far and we’ll have more updates to share soon!

4 Likes

Posting this feedback on behalf of Malacath, demo aficionado https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/u/malykith-azralon/summary

Redesigned Doom

  • It’s a breath of fresh air to see development time spent towards a redesign of Doom, as far as Warlock Spells, Doom have been abandoned for quite some time.
  • During Dragonflight we saw a wonderful iteration of it in the Seasson 3 Demonology Tierset with Doombrand, and I believe most warlocks would prefer to have that as a talent for the future.
  • But I also believe this current new, redesigned version of Doom can also be good, as long as pivoted towards the right direction.

Positive Points

  • It summons a pet, giving it a good demonology identity.
  • While its one additional active button, due to its cooldown you won’t overly delay your rotation by multi-dotting it.
  • Having its power concentrated in a single instance of the debuff might lead to it feeling more impactful.
  • Having a Cooldown stops you from multi-dotting on a spec who don’t want to spread dots (at least, manually).

Negative Points

  • Duration and Cooldown are out of sync.
  • Due to its fixed Cooldown, Neither Doom or Doomguard scale with Haste, and as Doom is player damage it does not scale with Mastery.
  • The period where Doom exploded and you are waiting its CD feels weird.

I believe this spell would feel best as the start and end of rotational cycles the spec, you start by applying Doom, execute your rotation with the objective of reducing it’s the duration of Doom towards 0, and once it explodes you apply it again.

This currently isn’t possible, as the Cooldown of the spell(30s) is longer than the Duration (who is 20s reduced by 3s per Demonic Core spent).

This also introduces an issue in regards to how the spell scales towards Haste, as it will always be a fixed amount of damage every 30s as Doomguard always cast only 5 Doombolts and Doom always deal X damage every 30s no matter how fast you can reduce its duration.

About the Duration Reduction

  • Truth be told, given the cooldown is fixed, you do not care about the Cooldown reduction of the spell as long as things are not dying before it ticks.
  • The Damage will always be X every 30s, even if it Doom expires at 6s, 9s or 12s or 20s.
  • Introducing a cooldown reduction alongside the Duration reduction or making it so that only 1 Doom can be active at any given time would solve this issue, but be warned the later could be abused to apply Dooms in sequence on enemies that are dying.

About On Death Trigger

  • Doombrand had this rly cool effect where killing a target affected by Doombrand would instantly trigger it, dealing its damage to the targets around it and with the chance of pricing Doomfiend.
  • I hope it stays as is on Doom, as it helps in M+ a lot, as long as Doom have a cooldown it shouldn’t be abusable either.

About Doomguard

  • Oh boy, I love doomguards, and have missed them greatly, but I will also miss the random demons of Nether Portal, specialy the better ones.
  • I ask, could it be possible to create a new “Random Demon List” with Doomguard, Malcheezar, Shivarra, Wrathguard, Felguard and have them doing equal damage, but summoned randomly as Doom Triggers?
    • You could preserve the “Identity of Nether Portal” while its completely gone.
10 Likes

This post will include feedback on the Warlock class tree changes from April 25. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

Before these changes class tree points were mostly locked in, with 1 or 2 points being able to be moved around depending on situation. I found this slightly restrictive but workable, as the tradeoffs of less valuable nodes for situational nodes felt acceptable. However with the changes, I feel even more restricted on what I “should be taking” vs situational nodes.

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/warlock/demonology/diabolist/DAOBKFRRQERQoEKFQBQAAAA This shows all the points I feel like are basically “required” for the content I do. Realistically, I’d always want to take these talents as well:

  • Fiendish Stride, as Burning Rush is my main movement ability outside of a planned Demonic Circle.
  • Fel Domination, as having to cast for 6 seconds and spending a shard to summon my pet is something that no one enjoys. Probably the most frustrating thing about dying is having to resummon your pet but Fel Domination is on cooldown.
  • Ichor of Devils/Frequent Donor makes Dark Pact an even better defensive. Considering Dark Pact is one of Warlock’s 2 active defensive personals, this choice node is basically mandatory.

With the new class tree if I take the above 3 talents, I am now locked in with 31/31 points. I have no additional points to take utility talents like Amplify Curse, Shadowfury, Banish, or Swift Artifice. I feel forced to sacrifice a throughput or survival node that I REALLY do not want to be losing, which is frustrating.

Ensure each capstone is interesting and exciting

  • Soulburn has been a great capstone. It’s flexibility and quality of life have been mostly great to have.
  • Soul Conduit moving to a capstone and being reduced to 1 rank feels acceptable, but very boring. At 10% I concede that the talent has lost a bit of it’s “moment of delight” when it procs, but I wish there was something more exciting in it’s place.
  • The new capstone Pact of Gluttony is interesting compared to it’s predecessor in that position. I won’t argue with more defensive capability, although to maximize it’s usage I’d want to be crafting healthstones (or dropping a Soulwell) mid combat to get a new one once I’ve used 3 charges (as it stands I’d want to be pressing this on cd as soon as I can get good value out of it which means past 3 or 4 minutes I’m looking to make a new healthstone). This is just not enjoyable gameplay. Also, at the moment I just don’t feel like I have enough points to justify taking Sweet Artifice.

Reduce the amount of throughput talents, to free up utility choices

I am excited about this goal because it would allow me to make meaningful choices on which utility nodes to pick. To me, this means I’m able to freely swap around 1 or 2 situational utility nodes without feeling like I’m missing out, rather feeling like I made a good/acceptable tradeoff. That said, I believe there are still some glaring pain points on the tree that are blocking us from achieving this goal.

  • Socrethar’s Guile and Sargerei Technique are both 2 point passive throughput nodes that feel very out of place on the tree and with the goal. Maybe removing all throughput nodes is taking it too far, but spending 4 points on these mandatory nodes is quite frustrating considering other nodes I want to be taking.
  • I’ve talked above about how “locked in” the new tree feels, so I don’t believe the changes have achieved the goal of “freeing up utility choices”.

Reduce the number of ranks for talents that don’t warrant multiple ranks

  • Fiendish Stride has gotten an interesting change. Burning rush is my main movement ability outside of a planned Demonic Circle, and having the damage reduced by 50% made it so I could use it more freely, maybe a bit too freely. I’m sad to see the damage reduction be nerfed so heavily.
    • The tradeoff of getting 10% more movement speed is a bit confusing, as I’ve never felt the need for even more movement speed while baseline Burning Rush was active. It’s nice I guess.
    • That said, these changes are understandable to make turning Burning Rush on feel more rewarding but also have it be more of a conscious choice rather than having 50% uptime (it will be missed).
  • Again, Socrethar’s Guile and Sargerei Technique fall in the category of “nodes that I don’t believe meet the goal”. These being reduced to 1 point each and their power being redistributed to the baseline specs would be a very welcome change (or their removal and replacement with new 1 point nodes).

Summary

Overall I think there are some nice ideas introduced with these changes like Swift Artifice and Pact of Gluttony. However, I do not feel like the tree achieves all the goals set out by team, especially goals about freeing up choice in the tree. I feel more restricted than ever with my points, and am considering trading off personal survivability/utility for situational group utility, which feels terrible. Removing the point each from Socrethar’s Guile and Sargerei Technique would let me have most of the “personal points” I really want, and also my choice of 1 or 2 situational utility nodes that can be swapped around freely.

9 Likes

Edit 5/06: Feedback on Demonology Cooldowns added

This post will include feedback on the Demonology spec tree changes. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

Doom

I’m glad Doom is getting a rework, and it’s following in the footsteps of the current Doom Brand (a very well-liked tier set that adds some variation in gameplay). I wouldn’t have minded Doom Brand in it’s current form plopped into the tree but I’m excited to see where we head with this version.

  • Doom and Pact of Ered’ruin offers damage but no significant impact with how I play. If we’re reducing the number of Cores I have, I’ll most likely always spend them as I generate them. It feels a bit boring for a capstone (but I guess we have Immutable Hatred so it’s not out of the ordinary).
  • Doom has a static 30 second cooldown that doesn’t scale with haste and a base 20 second duration. It feels a bit awkward that there’s no synergy between the 2, that I’m essentially pressing it on cooldown with not much thought about it. The only decision I have here is applying it to a low hp target so I get my damage out quicker (although if the pull lasts longer than lets say 20 seconds, it wouldn’t even matter which target I choose as I would get the full value of 1 Doom and it’s Doomguard).
  • As Pact of Ered’ruin isn’t summoning the Doomguard right now I’m unsure if it’s cast is single target or multitarget like the current Doom Bolt Volley. That would play a big part in determining whether or not it’s viable in different scenarios.
    • I’ll also assume this Doomfiend will behave similarly to the current Doomfiend in that it will be summoned if my target dies with Doom, and it will stay active out of combat if it’s 5 casts haven’t completed.

To be honest this version of Doom is much less interesting than current Doom Brand to me. I press a 30 second cooldown on cooldown and forget about it, compared to Doom Brand which was completely integrated into the flow of Demonology’s play. It felt fluid and natural to play around Doom Brand, and had good skill expression with spreading them. That said, I’m eager to see the evolution of this version of Doom.

The state of passive talents

Generally speaking, I’m not a huge fan of passive talents that do not interact with my play whatsoever. They are usually very boring and don’t bring anything interesting to the table or enhance my gameplay other than “oh look a DPS increase”, but feel decent as travel nodes if they are 1 pointers (“a few” 2 pointers wouldn’t break me, I guess). I acknowledge that there must be some passive nodes, but it seems that this build introduced a few too many of them to the spec tree.

  • Shadowcaster replaces a well-liked talent in Demonic Knowledge that I covered above. It also has no synergy with Demonology’s Mastery which only increases my demons’ damage, not my player’s damage (Hand of Gul’dan, Shadowbolt, Demonbolt).
  • Fiendish Prowess is another completely passive talent that only gives me a bigger number. It has no impact on my gameplay. There’s no point in tracking this or even caring about it, frankly.
  • Rune of Shadows is a slightly confusing talent as it has 2 unrelated parts to it. That aside, the reduced cast time of Shadow Bolt is extremely welcome if we are going to continue in this direction of more Shadow Bolts. No matter how the tree ends up I hope the 25% reduced cast time on Shadow Bolt stays in the tree.
  • Although Improved Demonic Tactics and Demonic Brutality have synergy with each other, I find them absolutely uninspiring but I guess more damage = more damage. My main frustration with these 2 nodes is placement. They sit completely central in the tree and yet they offer no interactivity with my gameplay.
  • Umbral Blaze and Cavitation are 2 current talents that are completely passive and cost 2 points each. The saving grace is that they are both on the outskirts of the tree and not required for pathing (yet).
  • Ferocity of F’harg is at least a bit interesting as a passive talent. It has synergy with Carnivorous Stalkers higher up in the tree, but otherwise still is just some % DPS increase with not much conscious acknowledgement.

Talent tree pathing

I’ll preface this section with the disclaimer that without extensive testing or simulations I do not know optimal builds for different scenarios.

I’m concerned about what we’ll need to give up in other parts of the tree to reach Wicked Maw/Mark of Shatug, which look like 2 great talents that I’d always want to take. Getting to these will require 2 points in Umbral Blaze or Imp Gang Boss, neither of which are attractive choices in the current tree. It’s frustrating that I need to choose the lesser of two evils to reach the bottom left of the tree, perhaps a connection between Inner Demons and Wicked Maw would help that.

The middle of the tree is also problematic right now. It’s frustrating that the smack center of the tree has 5 points worth of completely passive effects (Malefic Impact, Imp-erator, down to Demonic Brutality). These nodes also do not offer much value in traveling downwards in the tree, as I’m always looking to talent into Grimoire: Felguard -> Demonic Calling on the right and Power Siphon -> Inner Demons on the left. On the right, Dread Calling has been permanently included in Dragonflight builds so that side of the tree is easily accessed (with current tuning), and also grants access to Sacrificed Souls, allowing me to bypass the middle 5 points entirely.

The tree also has so many talent points in it (see row 7 that has 10 points worth of passive talents) that I’m frustrated and hard pressed to find any talent combination where I’m able to take all the synergistic points I want. With this tree I’m finding myself thinking that it’s more sensible to wait for simulations to determine best builds instead of testing myself since there are so many passive nodes and pathing issues. I’d like to see some more iteration on talent placement and node connections in future builds.

Middle capstone path

With the goals of reducing Demonology’s peaks and valleys, Demonic Tyrant and it’s following talents were neutered. On live, it’s never worth taking Soulbound Tyrant or the capstone choice node. However, Soulbound Tyrant was great quality of life going into cooldowns and if the numbers allowed, most players would opt into taking it. It’s confusing that it would be removed completely instead of, for example, being integrated into Tyrant.

Sacrificed Souls being a prerequisite to Tyrant is a bit confusing after being a single target specific talent for so long. It has minimal value in any cleave or multi target scenario, and feels out of place where it is, gating our “main cooldown”.

Lastly, Tyrant’s position in the tree is frustrating. Demonic Tyrant is required for both hero trees to fully function (Shadow of Death in Soul Harvester and Cruelty of Kerxan/Infernal Machine in Diabolist). I am forced to take Tyrant whose position is basically a capstone currently.

Being Demonology’s “main iconic” cooldown, it would feel infinitely better if Demonic Tyrant was placed where Improved Demonic Tactics or Demonic Brutality is, similar to Shadow Priest’s Voidform, Fire Mage’s Combustion, Evoker’s Dragonrage, Beast Mastery’s Bestial Wrath… the list goes on and on. There’s much more flexibility in that position for an ability that we “want” to always take.

Demonic Cores and resource generation

I’m assuming there is no going back on this issue so I’m leaving this feedback just to have it. It’s unfortunate we’re going in this direction but with Rune of Shadows now a required talent, Shadow Bolt feels much better to cast. However, since our main generator (Shadow Bolt) and main spender (Hand of Gul’dan) are both hard casts and instant Demonbolts will become “a moment” instead of rotational, I’m concerned that we’ll lose too much of our mobility if you continue to reduce the number of Cores we generate.

We still have 10% chance for Demonic Cores when an imp despawns/implodes, but it would feel very frustrating if all sources of “randomness” in Core generation were gone from the spec.

Less Demonbolts will also result in lower value for Immutable Hatred, a CAPSTONE.

detailed feedback here

The team working on Demonology Warlock have stated for the past few iterations in Dragonflight that there is a goal to “reduce the amount of resources Demonology generates.” I believe the community has expressed their overwhelming opposition against this goal enough for me to not go too deep into this. Other than to say a Demonology Warlock that casts more Shadow Bolts and less instant Demonbolts is just that much less interesting and that much more boring. The “ping pong” between Shadowbolt and Demonbolt was quite enjoyable, and if the goal was to “rein in our mobility”, why not do something like change Demonic Cores to make Demonbolts a very short cast instead of instant, instead of trying to minimize our core economy? By reducing the amount of Cores we gain, we are also essentially forced into talenting into Rune of Shadows to give us more Shadow Bolts.

reduce the amount of rotational time spent going back and forth between Hand of Gul’dan and Demonbolt only

Realistically this situation doesn’t happen that often anymore after the removal of the 3rd Dreadstalker and the Core changes made with that patch. To the player regardless of the justification, it can be boiled down to “we want you to cast Shadowbolt more often”. Which again is just confusing and frustrating given how “modern” Demonology has played in the past.

we want Demonbolt to return to being a moment rather than be your primary rotational button.

The tuning of Demonbolt is so weak with the current state of Core economy that this goal is wholly confusing. The “moment” of hitting an instant Demonbolt will always just feel worse than it did before these changes. Even with a huge damage buff to Demonic Core Demonbolts I’m afraid it’ll still feel vastly inferior to how it felt before these changes.

we are removing Demonic Knowledge

Another cut to our Demonic Core economy. Frustrating.

Overall these changes to Cores are extremely confusing, the community and I will continue to give negative feedback on this. The current Demonology Warlock does not have Core overflow and is essentially a stationary caster with Dreadstalkers, Hand of Gul’dan, Shadowbolt, and Demonic Tyrant. At the moment the spec feels fluid to play in single target and multi target. Whatever issues your teams are seeing with the state of our Resource Generation, I am not seeing it, nor being convinced of the points you’ve stated in your blue posts. As it has been this same talk patch after patch, I will accept it for what it is and move on from the early Dragonflight/late Shadowlands version of Demonology Warlock.

All this isn’t to say these changes coupled with the Shadow Bolt cast time reduction talent won’t make for “decent caster gameplay” (in a vacuum, not compared with previous Demo gameplay), emphasizing the importance of stutter stepping.

Demonology Cooldowns

With the changes to “peaks and valleys” of Demonology cooldowns, namely making base Demonic Tyrant cap at 10 imps + making it not extend imps after Tyrant is summoned, our current cooldown window is about as powerful as Belor’relos, a Season 3 raid trinket. While it’s great that we are now not a PI option and we gained a ton of sustained AoE, Tyrant itself feels a bit pitiful, along with Reign of Tyranny. Currently we don’t even run any Tyrant enhancing talents because other talents like Pact of the Imp Mother or Shadow Invocation are just stronger filler talents. Demonic Tyrant has essentially become a “companion” to Grimoire: Felguard in that we almost always hold Tyrant for 2 minutes. It’s sad that our “main cd” is in such a state. With Nether Portal being completely removed I’m hoping to see some changes to Tyrant to make it a stronger cooldown.

24 Likes

General Issues

I feel the biggest issue that Warlock is facing in TWW currently is talent bloat. Over the course of Dragonflight, we saw a handful of raw talent points added to the Demonology tree such as Fel Invocation, Shadow Invocation, Imperator and a handful of others. While these talents do feel thematically “Demo”, it has led to an issue of talent bloat, to the point where we are no longer able to select all of the suitable talent for ST/AOE that we desire in those settings. This combined with many of our talents being 2-pt talent nodes that are also in important, connective positions has led to the general feeling of not having enough talent points. Some examples are

Demonology

Umbral Blaze

Imp Gang Boss

Demonic Brutality

Dread Calling (used to be 1-pt talent)

Cavitation

Affliction

Malediction

Contagion

Focused Malignancy

Xavius’s Gambit

Improved Malefic Rapture

Destruction

Raging Demonfire (Can likely be merged with CDF)

Rolling Havoc

Fire and Brimstone

Scalding Flames

Improved Immolate

Flashpoint

Infernal Brand

Burn to Ashes
Master Ritualist

Chaosbringer

Power Overwhelming

I feel the best way to address this is to prune/merge abilities like Fel/Shadow Invocation/RDF (just make the effect part of the baseline ability) and also reduce the amount of 2-pt talent nodes drastically. Currently, both Affliction and Demonology (both have had initial overhauls) are very limited on raw talent points, to the point where we are not able to select our main Demon CD (Tyrant/Darkglare) without losing out on other, more impactful talents. There is also the issue of Tyrant and Darkglare being underpowered damage wise. Below is a list of the current raw talent point and 2-pt talent count for every spec.

Destruction has yet to receive an overhaul, which is likely why it is the highest in both categories, but the merging and trimming issue still remains. Doing so would greatly improve the pathing issues that the Warlock spec trees have, allowing for more customization and enjoyment.

Class Tree

I do feel that the class tree may have a few too many 2-pt talent nodes, making pathing/choice a bit difficult in certain builds where you may want spells such as Banish, Amplify Curse or other effects. Potential reductions in certain talent nodes such as Demon Skin/Fel Armor or others mentioned below would potentially help alleviate that scenario.

Fiendish Stride

Fiendish has been altered in TWW to now be a 1-rank talent and reduce the damage taken from Burning Rush by 10%, down from 25/50% in Dragonflight. While we have been given a speed increase (10% → 20%) with the overhaul, the loss of % damage mitigation from Burning Rush is likely too much and will cause the ability to not be taken in most settings. Potentially making the ability a 10% speed increase, but having it reduce Burning Rush damage by 30% would be a more suitable alternative, and a good middle-ground from where it currently is in DF.

Teachings of the Black Harvest

Potentially instead of giving you extra pet utility, it allows you to summon more powerful pets which deal more damage while having the same baseline utility. Would be awesome to have new pet skins to play with like Shad’har from Nya’lotha for example.

Imp → Fel Imp

Felhunter → Shad’har style pet

Felguard → Terrorguard

The ability could also be made into a potential capstone (maybe swapping places with Soulburn) which would bring with it both thematic flavor, as well as a damage increase that fits the premise of Warlock.

Accrued Vitality/Lifeblood

Both talents are 2-pt talent nodes have not really seen much play since their introduction. Making them 1-pt talent nodes would certainly be helpful, but I think there is also potential for replacement with other, more impactful talent nodes or in an attempt to trim down on excess talents in the class tree.

Demonic Resilience/Resolute Barrier

Demonic Resilience and Barrier could likely be made into 1-pt talent nodes in an attempt to make pathing towards Soulburn and Pact of Gluttony a bit easier.

Soul Conduit

I feel that Soul Conduit is a fine capstone to have in the class tree, but certainly feels underwhelming at 5%. In DF, it’s currently 5/10% at Rank ½, but with it shifting to a capstone ability, 10% for 1 rank I feel would be suitable. Over the course of a 3 minute fight, Soul Conduit refunded 4 total Soul Shards as Affliction, which felt a bit underwhelming.

There is also the possibility of tuning the % change per spec, such as 5% for Demo but 10% for Destruction and Affliction, and they spend shards much less often than Demonology.

Demonology

I feel the biggest issue that Demonology has is one of talent bloat post overhaul. Abilities like Fel/Shadow Invocation were added to the talent tree in Patch 10.2 and while I do personally enjoy them, added to the overall excessive amount of talent available to us. I feel the best way to help alleviate the issue Demonology faces with both pathing and talent selection is to potentially merge certain talents into baseline abilities while also removing raw talent nodes from the Demonology tree. This would both give us additional points to spend in respective single target/AOE builds, while also making pathing choices more clear-cut.

Fel/Shadow Invocation

I personally love the flavor of both these talents, but do feel they play a part in our talent bloat issue. The two talent nodes before 10.2 did not exist.

While both fel/shadow invocation were welcome additions to our toolkit, I do feel that a potential solution would be to simply merge Shadow Invocation with Bilescourge Bombers and Fel Invocation with Soul Strike/Vilefiend. Simply adding the invocations ability into the corresponding ability would make them more powerful, and likely also make Bilescourge Bombers our choice in M+/AOE compared to DS, while giving DS the leg up in single target. This change would also save us 2 talent points for future pathing etc.

Shadows Bite and Umbral Blaze

Both Bite and Blaze have felt a bit unimpactful over the course of Dragonflight, and are passive abilities that do not really change your rotation or the way your character plays. If space is needed for new abilities or general talent pruning is done, both could likely be removed without affecting Demonology damage profile.

Imp-Gang Boss, Demonic Brutality, Umbral Blaze, Dread Calling & Cavitation

All of these abilities make up Demo’s 7th talent row, and each are a 2 talent point investment. The issue with that is that it makes pathing into the bottom “capstone” section of our talent tree awkward. If you want to select talents in both the Guillotine and Doom sections, you have to commit 2 talent points to both Dread Calling and Imp-Gang Boss to unlock both capstone rows, leaving you with only 8 talent points to spend on final talents.

This means that you are essentially locked out of choosing your new Doom Talents as well as Demon Tyrant (which is required for Soul Harvester). It’s possible that there are too many end tier talent points as Demonology which could be moved higher in the tree (such as Expendables, Pact of the Imp Mother etc) but it feels that we are far too limited regardless based on the previously mentioned pathing via our 7th talent row all costing 2 talent points each. A reduction in talent point costs from 2 to 1 in our 7th row would help alleviate the issue.

Sac Souls and Demonic Tyrant/Soulbound Tyrant

The positioning of Sac Souls and it being the only connecting talent to Demonic Tyrant makes pathing choices a bit awkward. It feels like Sac Souls is out of place, as it is not really a talent that I would want to pick for Mythic + or AOE, but is required to access my main CD. The first potential solution is to place another talent where sac souls is (such as The Expendables) which is universally applicable. This would make the pathing into Tyrant not feel as “restricted”, like you are paying a toll in Sac Souls to access Demonic Tyrant. I feel like fully removing Sac Souls is also more than fine.

The other potential solution is the return Demonic Tyrant to the 8th row of the talent tree (replacing Sac Souls) and return Soulbound Tyrant (5 shards on cast), but make it a 1-pt talent that grants all 5 shards, instead of a 2-pt talent that grant 3 or 5. You could also (instead of Soulbound Tyrant) reintroduce Supreme Commander, a well loved ability that was an azerite trait in BFA and Shadowlands.

Placing it below Demonic Tyrant would have a pathing of Summon Demonic Tyrant → Supreme Commander → Grand Warlocks Design/Reign of Tyranny. Doing so would add additional value to GWD, as you are gaining the Supreme Commander buff more frequently, while also keeping RoT as a choice you can make in settings where additional burst damage is required. Demonic Tyrant in its current form sadly feels underwhelming when it comes to power level and I fear may be at a risk of not being selected with current pathing. Adding some additional “juice” to the ability via Supreme Commander would be an exciting change and likely enough to boost its power level/relevancy.

There is also the possibility of adding an additional ability to Tyrants casts, such as a Doombolt Volley (AOE relevancy) or an empowered Doombolt, in a similar fashion to the S3/4 Tier bonus Doomguard casts.

Doom and Pact of Ered’ruin

The twist on our S3/4 Tier Set with Doom is interesting. The fact that the Doomguard is a guaranteed spawn is exciting, ensuring you should likely have one for every pack in M+/every 30 or so seconds. If Doom is to stay in its current form and not be altered to our S3/4 tier bonus, I feel it would be interesting to experiment with a CDR on Doom itself whenever you consume a Demonic Core, maybe by 1.5 seconds per core consumption? It would give you the choice of re-applying Doom at a certain point in M+/AOE, or potentially holding the ability for the next pack, if desired. Having Demonic Core apply Doom (like our tier) would also help with ease of play and enjoyment, so I am more than fine with simply implementing the S3/4 bonus, it has made Demonology feel quite enjoyable, having to watch your brands.

It does feel that both Doom and Pact could very well be moved to their previous position, where Improved Demonic Tactics and Demonic Brutality are currently positioned. With us wanting to path into Guillotine(far right side of talent tree) and then having Tyrant talent nodes, Wicked Maw, Mark of Shatug and Ferocity of F’harg, we are limited on talent points in the section. It feels that we are semi-forced to skip out on Doom or other talents of relevance to access what we want in different settings. Placing Doom and Pact where they previously were does not feel like it would be too powerful and the ability is universally applicable, a great center-tree talent path.

Passive Talents and Flavor

A great portion of Demo’s talents are simply passives, which is something that I do envision a pet based class having a bit more than others. A great portion of them are based around damage/crit/attack speed modifiers, things that you cannot really “feel” in your rotation, and being able to feel exciting talents, changes to your rotation is what keeps things interesting. We have had some exciting “passive” abilities before, such as the previous version of Imp-Gang Boss. Building imps for an implosion, imploding, and then getting 3-7 back felt amazing and it was gameplay that you could FEEL. It captured the essence of what Demonology is, and the talent was loved. The most recent iteration sadly removed the imp refund clause, opting for a larger increase to implosion damage. Sadly, this version is not played in any setting, mostly due to tuning/talent pathing, but even if it was worthwhile numerically, you can’t “feel” the talent, it just does more damage.

Two other talents come to mind when I think of passives that you can feel. The first is our iconic 3rd Dreadstalker in “Ripped from the Portal”.

This talent was removed heading into Patch 10.1 to address our Demonic Core economy, thus removing one Demonic Core from every Dreadstalker cast. While losing the core was felt, losing our 3rd Dreadstalker was the greater loss and one that was echoed by many. I would love to see Ripped From the Portal return in TWW, but you can simply keep the Demonic Core refunds at 2, which is what our current Dreadstalkers refund. Potentially turning the additional dreadstalker into a smaller Core Hound or some other kind of Demonic Hound would be a solution to the 3rd core and would certainly be an awesome, welcomed return to a beloved ability. This is also a great passive ability that you can feel as a player, similar to the previous version of Imp-Gang Boss.

Another potential option would be to bring back Improved Dreadstalkers from legion. This ability had your Call Dreadstalkers summon 2 Wild Imps, which rode on the back of the Dreadstalkers themselves, into combat.

Thematically, this is one of the most thematically “Demo” abilities that we have ever had. I feel the ability would also slot in very well on the left side of the Demonology talent tree with the recent additions of Wicked Maw, Mark of Shatug and Ferocity of F’harg. Improved Dreadstalkers is another awesome example of a passive ability that maintained Demonic thematics and was something they player could “feel”, everytime they cast Call Dreadstalkers. If it and Ripped From the Portal were to be part of a capstone row, it could look something like Wicked Maw → Improved Dreadstalkers → Ripped From the Portal. Improved Dreadstalkers would interact with Ripped, giving you an imp on the back of all 3 dogs, even more thematics and flavor. This row could take the place of Doom and Pact, which could be moved back to their previous, central location.

Thal’kiels Consumption

While Legion and Thal’kiel are gone, the ability itself is one that I think current Demonology could certainly embrace, potentially as a Capstone ability. Having the ability to steal the life-force of the Demons you summon and turn it into raw damage is exactly what I envision a “Master Summoner” being, which is what TKC embraces. It could slot into the talent tree in a similar fashion to Oblivion for Affliction, which is a lesser, 45 second CD that is used between our major demon summon.

Affliction

Affliction is in an interesting spot, but I like the overall direction it is heading for a Malefic Rapture based version of the spec. I feel the largest issue that Affliction faces currently is that of talent pathing/choices, but it differs from Demonology. Affliction currently has 43 total talent point possibilities, compared to Demonology having 50 and Destro having 56. 43 is nearly tied for the lowest raw number of talent points in any spec tree. The main issue is that the talent highlighted below are pretty much required in any and every Affliction talent build.

This means that (in similar fashion to Demonology) you are faced with the issue of having to spend your last 10 “capstone” talents in earlier rows to fill in certain abilities such as Malediction or Contagion, which are 2-pt talent nodes. You simply cannot reduce most of them to 1-pt talents however, as we are already at 43 total. A potential solution is to reduce talents such as Malediction/Contagion/Empowered Unstable Affliction to 1-pt talents, and add in a few new, 1 talent nodes.

A way to extend active DOTs

Having a way to extend active DOTs in a similar fashion to Shadow Priests via Void Bolt would be a significant QOL increase for Warlocks, especially in AOE/M+ settings. While the recent 5 second reduction to Vile Taint is helpful, it is still too long to permanently maintain DOTs by itself. Adding a talent point that extends active DOTs by maybe 1 second per Drain Soul tick/2 seconds per Shadowbolt cast would help alleviate the issue that Affliction faces in these settings, while greatly increasing QOL.

Siphon Life vs Absolute Corruption

The change to Siphon Life is a welcome one, one that I am very happy to play with. I do feel however that the difference in Corruption’s damage increase (15% with AC vs 20% with SL) is likely not enough to warrant SL over AC in single target settings. With AC saving you multiple globals over the course of an encounter, it is likely comparable if not better than SL in those settings. It is possible that SL needs a damage buff (or to buff an additional spell such as Agony or UA) to become the clear-cut winner in single target.

Sacrolash’s Dark Strike and Summoner’s Embrace

Summoner’s Embrace is a talent that you will likely want in every setting as Affliction. The issue is that it is locked behind talenting into Sacrolash’s Dark Strike, which is an underwhelming ability and one that I would rather not talent into in single target. It sort of feels similar to the Seized Vitality → Haunted Soul pathing that we have had in Dragonflight, having to pay a “toll” (toll being Sacrolash) to get to the better talent. I would love to see the Summoner’s Embrace/Sacrifice talent node stand on its own or have Sacrolash removed/replaced with something more universally applicable.

Death’s Embrace

Death’s Embrace in its original form was one of the coolest abilities I think Affliction has ever had to play with. In Legion, the effect began at 35% health on targets, and would increase your damage up to 50%, scaling higher when the enemy dropped lower in health.

The current form of Death’s Embrace in TWW however, is a much lesser version, beginning at 20% health (35% in Legion) and only increasing our damage by a flat 5% (down from a max of 50% in Legion). I would love to see a return to the ramping damage increase that old Death’s Embrace had, giving Affliction Warlock execute damage, which increased at lower health. Increasing the threshold where it begins (to say 30%) would also go a long way in making the ability more relevant. It is exciting to see the ability back but in its current form, sadly feels very underwhelming.

Soul Rot Placement

Soul Rot is directly tied to the Soul Harvester Hero Talent tree, one that I have greatly enjoyed playing so far. One potential issue that I do see however is where Soul Rot is placed in our spec tree, being in the far, bottom right talent row (row 9). Accessing this talent (with the previously mentioned talent issues) is hard at times when also wanting to select other talent such as Darkglare or Oblivion/Haunted Soul etc.

Potentially moving both Soul Rot and Dark Harvest to a more central location (potentially in place of Sacrolash and Embrace/Sacrifice) would go a long way in helping Affliction Warlocks select Soul Rot, without feeling pigeonholed in our capstone choices at times. Soul Rot being in the central talent point of the Affliction tree is also very suiting, as the ability is good in both single target and AOE alike. There could potentially be a clause added to Dark Harvest where it grants a bit more Crit/Haste if it only hits one target, to compensate for its placement and universal applicability.

16 Likes

This post will contain feedback on Affliction and their changes to the spec tree. I mainly mythic raid and play Mythic+ as a source of gear for raiding so that’s the perspective I’ll be coming from.

Siphon Life

Finally free from Siphon Life prison! A welcome change for sure, although I think the new Siphon Life and Absolute Corruption are too similar to each other for me to be completely satisfied with this choice node.

As a tangent observation, with Hellcaller and Seeds of Their Demise, theoretically we’ll always want to take Siphon Life to benefit from the 2nd part of the talent, although Seed of Corruption doesn’t give Wither +3 stacks when refreshing Wither under 4 seconds.

Passive talents

This tree now has quite a few passive talent points in the middle of the tree from row 4 to row 7. Other than Empowered UA and Focused Malignancy none of these are interactive, just generic increased damage. Although this tree may be less punishing to fill out (still unsure of this until tuning passes), it’s now frustrating to path due to these 16(!!) points that I really want most of the time. I’d like to see some of these passive effects baseline, especially the Malefic Rapture damage increase nodes. This would make room for nodes like Improved Malefic Rapture be moved up the tree in a position similar to Empowered UA, or a shiny new interactive talent in place of Xavius’ Gambit.

Our new middle nodes in Malediction and Contagion are both uninspiring. Even if they’re strong and have good synergy with each other, they almost feel bad to take, not to mention spending 4 points for (considering I always want to take the 6 points in row 7 in raid).

The new node Summoner’s Embrace is also a must take, but being gated behind Sacrolash’s Dark Strike doesn’t feel great (taking a mid talent for a decent damage talent).

Empowered UA and Improved Malefic Rapture also do not lower my GCD while casting these abilities by 20% so the reduced cast time is useless.

On the topic of Improved Malefic Rapture, this is a required node in all content. Although it’s accessible since we always take Vile Taint, it feels bad that a required node is so far down and to the side of the tree, and that it costs 2 points. At least Empowered UA is more central and much higher up which makes it that much easier to take.

Soul shard generation

With new talents Empowered UA and Relinquished as well as Hellcaller hero talents, Affliction got access to quite a few new soul shard generating abilities. Along with free Malefic Raptures in Tormented Crescendo and the Soul Harvester tree, I feel like I’m gaining soul shards a tad faster than I’d like (crazy I know). Personally I’d like to see shard generation toned back a bit while making Malefic Rapture hit harder to balance it out (less hard casts as a result also better), but I know a few people who would say more shards = more fun.

AoE vs single target builds

Although one of the goals with the Affliction changes was to “erase the need to choose between single target and multi target profiles”, I don’t believe this first iteration fully achieves this. Making Malefic Rapture our only spender is a good start to fixing this, but comparing the old tree to this new tree, we’ve essentially just replaced the Dread Touch row with Oblivion, and Sow the Seeds options with Cull the Weak. These two parts of the tree still seem like big tradeoffs for AoE vs single target, even if the middle of the tree has many more general nodes that work for both AoE and single target. The saving grace is in the fact that Volatile Agony/Cull the Weak/Cunning Cruelty all have single target value, so investing 3 points into Cull the Weak on cleave fights could be good for single target depending on fight profile. This is fully dependent on Volatile Agony, Cull the Weak’s, etc value in single target however; if those nodes are peanuts in single target we’re still back to the issue of having to lose a lot of single target power for multi target.

Overall though, Cull the Weak (and Volatile Agony to an extent) is a welcome tuning knob that also has single target value, making losing some pure single target nodes down the tree potentially less painful to drop.

Soul Rot

The Soul Harvester hero tree requires Soul Rot to be chosen. Currently it’s position is as a capstone, making potential builds very limited. Soul Rot being in a more central position would make pathing the tree feel much more rewarding given how well the spell synergizes with the rest of Affliction’s kit.

If Soul Rot stays in this position, it’s currently gated by Death’s Embrace. While additional execute ability is welcome, this pathing feels a bit questionable and 5% isn’t a very enticing number.

Phantom Singularity

With tuning and Affliction’s doubling down on 30/60/120s dump windows, Phantom Singularity has fallen out of favour, which is sad considering that this node looked like the decision between single target and multi target. Vile Taint also as the bonus of refreshing my Agonies without an additional GCD commitment. The only thing Phantom Singularity has going for it is that it’s instant cast. I’d like to see some changes to this ability so that the choice between Phantom Singularity and Vile Taint is an actual choice in different scenarios.

Phantom Singularity also has never scaled with haste, making it’s use in cooldowns a bit unusual for a DoT (I want to use PS before any haste steroids as haste shortens the length of the DoT but does not increase the number of ticks).

Oblivion

Oblivion is a bit intriguing considering it’s a “bad Deathbolt”. It gives Affliction some on demand damage, although it’s value in target swapping is still just as bad considering we don’t have Soul Swap anymore (3 gcds applying dots + 3s channel).

It being a channel feels a bit disappointing, but I acknowledge that it being instant would be too strong. I’d like to see some middle ground here, maybe like being able to move while channeling, or a cast less than 3s.

Mechanically it’s also a bit confusing. Oblivion’s damage is increased by active DoTs up to 30%, meaning it gains full value when my basic DoTs (UA, Agony, and Corruption) are on the target. It has no interaction with Soul Rot or Vile Taint/PS, making it an ability that I’ll just press on cooldown. It does feel a bit boring in this regard, but I will admit that my Vile Taint/Soul Rot windows are already very full with Malefic Rapture spam and adding Oblivion to this may make it feel like I’m trying to cram too much into those windows.

Lastly, it’s cooldown. At 45s Oblivion’s offset from 30/60s cooldowns feels fine if it doesn’t work with cooldown DoTs. However, if it does, then it’ll feel bad in all cases; it will feel bad to hold it 15s for minute cds, but it will also feel bad to press it on cd as I’m missing out on “full value”. Oblivion cd lines up with Phantom Singularity, but being capped at 3 DoTs I don’t want to be spending PS uptime channeling Oblivion.

5 Likes

This post contains feedback on changes to hero talents made on May 2.

Hellcaller

Mark of Xavius has been redesigned – Agony/Wither damage increased by 20%/25% and the cooldown of Vile Taint/Cataclysm is reduced by 5 seconds.

The decision to include 5 second cd reduction on Vile Taint is a bit confusing. This number doesn’t allow me to refresh Agony with only Vile Taint before or after adding pandemic duration, and since I’ll probably still want to stack short cds together for Malefic Rapture in boss encounters (Vile Taint, Soul Rot, Malevolence), I would still hold it for 60/120s which nullifies the cd reduction. In AoE, it does have some quality of life benefits, giving you a larger window to refresh your Agonies with Vile Taint (Vile Taint -> refresh under 10s to proc Volatile Agony -> Vile Taint). Apart from that it does not interact with Phantom Singularity at all, it seems like we’re being pushed in Vile Taint’s direction for all content.

For Destruction with 2/2 Raging Demonfire (assuming this talent is supposed to extend Wither), I’d be able to refresh Wither with Cataclysm regardless of if I’m specced into Mark of Xavius or not (not applicable without 2/2 Raging Demonfire as even with 5s reduction I wouldn’t be able to catch my Withers regardless of Hatefury Rituals or not), making the 2nd part of the talent essentially “an extra Cataclysm every 3 minutes”. Not terribly exciting.

5 Likes

I have been playing only diabolist demonologist, as it is the spec I will for sure be playing, and have the most enjoyment with, I have made feedback above, but here will be my more up to date feedback!
(Also I agree very much with most of Kalamazi’s feedback.)

General Warlock
I like the shuffeling of the talents, and think there should be more.
6 throughput talents, all miniscule +% damage increases to specific spells still feels lackluster to another class like DK who gets 14 throughput talents throughout their basic tree.

Plus these throughput talents we have are all just “X Ability does more damage” nothing cool, like other classes with powerful abilities or passives.

Far too much of our tree is utility, stuff like how you have to unlock extra curses to get +10% stamina.
Demonic Resiliance, howl of terror, teachings of black harvest and Resolute Barrier still not good.
Demonic resiliance could be merged with black harvest as a 1 pointer and it would still be likely ignored.
We still have the issue of the current capstones not feeling impactful like the rework was supposed to do. Soul conduit 5% is both weaker then prior, and not an impactful capstone. Gluttony is a very good talent, I like it, but not a capstone. If anything the capstones should be to the types of warlock, and you should only be able to get 2 of them feasibly. A talent for a demon focus, maybe empowering your demon. Another being one that increases the crit chance and power of your abilities for destruction, and one that increases your dots damage (applies dot for hand of guldan) this way you can be your spec + a small focus into another spec.

Demonology
A spec about summoning demons, in its tree you start with imps, felguard, and dreadstalker.
Through your talents you unlock a vilefiend, tyrant, another felguard, bilescourge talent no one takes. The talent is not even a bilescourge, its a bat.
The tree feels lacking in demon summoning and empowering, especially now with the new changes made in this build, which just enchance the issues in ways.

We should have more demon summoning talents, like bring back imps on the back of dreadstalkers, maybe make it where carnivores stalkers is, and move that down to bottom left.

I know a pet class like us would be mostly passives, as too many actives would be chaotic. We need more interesting passives, in a spec like this the amount of “this ability does more damage” that has no visual or playstyle flavour just gets lost. and we have way too many.

Good job with portal, I agree and like the replacement.

Demonbolt
I still think demonbolt should not have the ability to be cast at all unless you have demonic cores.

Sacrificed Souls
Bad talent, feels weird to lock tyrant behind it.

Shadowcaster, Malefic Impact, and Umbral Blaze
Demononolgy is about summoning more demons, more powerful demons, and yet we have these three talents all right beside eachother.
These talents all just buff hand of guldan damage in one way or another. No cool flare, 3 talents that take 3 slots and 4 points total that their only purpose is to make hand of guldan do more damage. Talents like these feel against demonolgies theme, as it would be much more interesting even if these just buffed your wild imps damage instead, cause then it would be on theme.

Implosion-Passive
Implosion feels like it is such a pain to work with, and feels anti fun at times. I really feel Implosion should work that the more time they have left the more damage they deal, so it does not feel painful to use up full time ones.
And with that, make implosion a choice node, with the other option being a passive version of implosion, where it just sends em off to blow up once they run out of energy.

Spiteful Reconstitution
This talent feels weird for many reasons. First being that it does not even explain what the chance to summon a wild imp is, and also it gives implosion bonus damage, but does not require unlocking implosion to acquire, which is odd as it is the only spot in the tree you can buff an ability you do not have.

Demonic calling, Dread Calling, Imp gang boss, Inner demons.
These talents feel out of place, the bottom left is where doom is, and with it the 3 dog focused talents. But the opposite side of the tree is where the dog talents demonic calling and dread calling are. Would it not be better to maybe swap these two talents locations?
Because of how the tree has sorta built itself with this dividing, the right side of the tree is focused on empowering your felguard and imps, and the left side is about sacrificing your imps, and empowering your dogs. But these 4 talents are on the opposite sides from one another.

Antoran Armaments
Demonology could do with a talent that makes your felguard/wrathguard use 2 weapons, this used to be part of the wrathguard default, but in legion was removed and has only ever returned as bugs. Maybe make it part of antoran armaments.

Thal’kiel?
I feel like a return of thalkiel through a talent or two would be a wonderful resurge into the class fantasy, bringing back thal’kiels discord and consumption as choice node maybe? With both options making the skull float beside you, with the cosmetic able to be changed to the skulls you have unlocked?

Metamorph?
Metamorphasis back plz?

Diabolist-Demonology
Tree didnt really see any major changes, so just quick overview.

Touch of Rancora
The cast time buff is super jarring and feels awful. This should do something else that is interesting, or just rework the talent, as is it feels horrid to acidentally use this on the wrong ability cause it just pops up with little warning while trying to juggle everything else.

Soul-Etched Circles/Annihilan’s Bellow
No one really uses howl of terror, and this talent just feels lame. I think it would be more interesting to give us the choice to buff demonic circle, or hearthstone with perma soulburn.

Cruelty of Kerxan
Still feels pointless.

Gloom of Nathreza
This talent should be changed to something to do with your demons, just another hand of guldan damage buff is annoying.

Infernal Machine
Destruction has a very good time with this talent, as infernal helps them get more shards.
However for demonology this is the opposite, we spend most of our shards before our tyrant to stuff it full of good stuff, then have a lack of shards cause no more demonic cores are spawning. It feels like this talent should do something else for demonology.

1 Like