There plenty of great hero trees for other classes, we just need to give good feedback to iterate them, and more good feedback to rework the worsts
And yes that includes feedback about why the base spec talents might be an issue (aka: Shadowdust :P)
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I believe itâs two hero specs, one from each of the other two class specs. But you can only pick one. Not that you actually have a choice, sims will tell you which one you can use.
Once more genius idea we have to balance and optimize around.
i mean every expansion has player power that we balance around. this isnt new at all
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I have had time to think it over and I am ready to give more detailed feedback:
After thinking about it Feint awarding CPs and doing an extra attack may not be integral to class rotation.
But Surprising Strikes encourages the use of Feint as a CP generator. This was a challenge when Blade Flurry was part of the single target rotation. I feel that Surprising Strikes may be a good way to help other combo point generators feel good to press like Mutilate, Backstab and Sinister Strike. But the problem is that this is very potent when combined with Unseen Blade (Feint). Maybe it should be like 12% for combo point generators like Feint, Gouge, FoK, Pistol shot. And leave it be for 25% for the main combo point generators like Mutilate, Backstab, Ambush and Sinister Strike.
On the other side you have Flawless Form which is a nice mini bonus which you could line up by using Feint and Secret Tech/Kspree. But the concept of multiple applications feels like too much maintenance and spam. Increase the mastery bonus to a flat 6% instead of allowing multiple applications to overlap. In other words it is going to feel strange to use Feint back to back to reach max mastery stack and then start doing your rotation.
Going over the middle node which is a utility choice node I think that is fair as that gives some variety and choice to players based on preferences which aligns with the Rogue general and spec specific talent trees.
Now moving down the tree there is a choice node to the far left with So Tricky vs Donât Be Suspicious.
While a TotT for an hour sounds nice the utility of increased sap range seems far better. I would say that if Tricks actually was like the PVP talent then it would make more sense IMO.
Devious Distraction I do not understand because in essence is that a way for the debuff to be refreshed? Why not increase the Fazed debuff length instead by default than having Kspree or Secret Tech refresh the debuff?
Thousand Cuts refreshes the debuff which means autos can refresh the debuff right when it procs? So what the point of Devious Distraction? Is the proc rate that low?
Flickerstrike I have discussed before but the short summary is that it could break CC.
Nimble Flurry reduces the CDs of Kspree and Secret Tech with damage increase but I think something more interesting can be done than have CDR here.
Elaborate Twirl increases the duration of Flawless Form but the problem still remains you are hypothetically going to do back to back Feints to build stacks to start your rotation. That doesnât seem right to me and Elaborate Twirls seems redundant if Flawless Form is a flat 6% mastery bonus when one application of Feint is used.
Cloud Cover is great utility but it is competing with a damage talent No Scrupples as a choice. Not sure why? Is this a balance reason to ensure all hero tree progression have a mix of utility and damage through puts?
Coup De Grace cleans up a lot of the problems I see earlier in the tree regarding Flawless Form and Unseen Blade.
But the main problem I see is how long does the Coup De Grace buff last? That is a lot of things to juggle for the payoff with Coup De Grace it seems.
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Nice write up overall, but on this specific point; the issue I see is that there is already way too damn many things to juggle in the same windows that Fazed and Coup de Grace would be inserted into; it creates an even more innaccessible spec(s)
It puzzles me, they made Ret even easier than ever, they buffed it to high heaven, yet the specs that have way more star alignment windows to do their basic damage donât necessarily reward with more - what is the philosophy here; because making a spec exponentially more complicated is only achieving driving players away from it, and Rogues just keep being pushed in that direction.
Are there people that like endless complexity? Sure, but shouldnât we try to encourage more people to play each spec? I said it before, I am not asking for rogues to be zug zug 2 buttons easy, but its already so bloated in the dmg windows, what are we supposed to tell new players? âYeah Rogues could be fun but you have to line up all these buffs every time or else you do no damageâ, is this really where Rogues are supposed to be?
The bigger issue is that if we were not already so bloated in the dance windows and whatnot, Fazed probably wouldnât be that much of an issue. But inserting that inside a Danse Macabre⌠I hate Shadowdust with a passion, by now everyone knows that in this thread, but I hate Danse Macabre as well at this point. The biggest issue with Rogues and their hero talents is how the base spec talents have so many issues that hero talents would have to navigate to create something fun.
I hope it wasnât just rambling and that I made some sort of sense.
Edit: I realize I wrote âissuesâ so many times in the same paragraph⌠I ainât changing it!
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Like many other classes, they never test the rotation or key bindings, they just put things in the skill page or tree slot, and work done everyday.
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Mafic youve been called on to join the crusade.
The point is each time Blizzard adds a new ability, it diminishes the impact of all the other abilities. Back in WotLK we had, maybe, 5 abilities doing 100% of our damage. Now we have 10. We went from a few meaningful skills to juggling 10 mediocre ones.
When does it stop?
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What are the chances Blizzard seriously takes this fedback and redesigns the tree?
The overall response has been overwhelmingly negative (and for good reason) but Iâm unsure if they will act upon this feedback or just ignore this thread and roll it out anyways.
From a very casual point of view the tree looks like it could be some fun. The damage boost to Feint looks fun in terms of a nice little counter effect to reward the player in terms of a damage boost to correctly mitigating incoming damage. However upon reading the views of others who are much better skilled than I will ever be, I can see how annoying sacrificing a defensive to gain the best possible damage would be.
In short, if anyone at Blizzard does read this thread please redo this tree/damage buff to not only be fun for us casuals but also not against your more devoted fans of the class.
Given how little new features are added to TWW (in comparison to Dragonflight), Hero Talents really need to be fun, intuitive, and rewarding all types of players.
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Are we playing the same game. Wotlk was peak melee+weapon poisons doing 65% of your overall damage.
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(Caveat: I usually play Sin)
Unseen Blade â Obviously polarizing, but I like this talent and think they can stick the landing with the tuning of it. Obviously, itâs shoehorning utility into the rotation, and thatâs been problematic in the past, but I wouldnât be so quick to lump it in with stuff like Vanish or Shiv being used rotationally â yet. Iâd sooner lump those with the talents being planned around Distract, where, like Vanish and Shiv, the ability is singular, unique, and irreplaceable for X amount of time once used. Needing to use it rotationally means that its other uses are completely forfeit, and the timing rarely works out perfectly where you can use it for something else anyway. At the very least, Feint has the advantage of âonlyâ being DR (ie. a healer can spot you outside of the highest possible M+ situations), and I can see a situation where youâd only be jamming Feint in rapid succession only for the sake of prio or securing a kill. At least thematically, itâs awesome, and it will feel excellent to get combo points kicked back on a Feint. However, if the correct use ends up being back to back Feints opening a Subter windowâŚperhaps not. It just needs some kind of healthy limitation baked in, methinks, but itâs an inspired idea.
Surprising Strikes â +Damage talent, easy enough. Question: does it stack multiplicatively with Lethality, or is it a flat % add? Iâd be interested to see how this might affect class talent selections, if at allâŚ
So Tricky/Donât Be Suspicious â Perma TotT opens up interesting new M+ utility, but itâs not without caveats if So Tricky Tricksters then become the must-take Rogue over all others and/or if the value of So Tricky vastly overshadows DBS. Reduced Blind and Shroud CD is fun. Getting Sapâs original range back is nice. Pickpocket range increase would be more fun if there were a mechanical point to it.
Nimble Flurry â Damage and CDR, sweet.
Smoke/Mirrors â A situational DR toggle, neat.
Devious Distractions â More Fazed uptime, awesome.
Cloud Cover/No Scruples â Cloud Cover definitely needs more of a description to make a fair critique of it. +10% crit on finishers is a lot. Iâm not seeing a situation where youâd pick whatever Cloud Cover is instead. I also think that there would be an understated loss of Distract in M+. If youâre playing it right, Distract ends up being hugely important for avoiding inconvenient patrols and buttpulling. Having to notch that into an AoE rotation would be frustrating and potentially, if unclearly, not worth the utility loss.
Flawless Form â Interesting, but we still need more of a description for how stacks work/fall off I think? If theyâre rolling and can be maintained with reapplied Unseen Blades, that might only serve to exacerbate concerns about overcapping Feint.
Thousand Cuts/Flickerstrike â I like the PvE/PvP variability of this choice a lot. At least, it seems like thatâs the choice being presented here. I also think that letting Slice and Dice feel better as a key press isnât a bad thing, even if it does just translates into âbutton = more passive damageâ
Elaborate Twirl â Yes, but what does it mean? Do stacks fall off? If yes, this allows stacks to live a little longer. If no, this extends the window in which stacks can be reapplied to extend the duration. Does anyone have some guess math at how Flawless Form will play off Unseen Blade? Iâd love to see something like that.
Coup de Grace â Awesome play on a few things weâve seen with rogue design before. It almost feels like a controlled blend of Finality and Flag. I also like the idea that you could probably rush full stacks with an early Feint, but, as suggested above, it would be bad if thatâs just what youâre expected to do opening a fight. It almost promotes a gameplay similar to Fire, which could be very interesting. Or frustrating.
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Main issue with that line of thinking; this is node #1 of this tree, if it is seldom used, it defeats the purpose. Fazed being only 5 seconds means other sources will not be reliable enough to have uptime when needed (otherwise it further invalidates half that tree anyway)
The main issue remains that Sub rogues have to align a ton of abilities in short dance windows, adding one more to it is just pure bloat. Outlaw is so fast paced finding a spot to press that button is just as likely to be annoying more than rewarding.
This right there is the problem, accepting that we can lose our utility and âthe healer can just deal with itâ; no absolutely not. In the content where it matters, you absolutely abuse feint for itâs defensive value.
Amen to that!! Pickpocket has been abandoned so hard itâs frustratingly boring 
Is another thing to line up amongst the billion other things these specs already have to line up to just do base DPS 
Overall nice writeup, sorry if I donât agree with the core points, but thatâs perfectly fine and the nature of the conversation needed here!
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There are concerning parts to it all, no doubt, and Iâm 100% with you, that, generally speaking, âitâs a healer problem nowâ is not an acceptable design direction, especially if that ends up being the case every time a player cycles through their rotation. My thought is only that the situation with Feint being used offensively seems qualitatively different than, say, Vanish and Shiv (and Distract, if these new talents are worth using), where youâre using utility abilities offensively, and the impact of those abilities is just flatly gone until they come off cooldown. Unlike this new situation with Feint, other players arenât able to drop in and cover your use of Vanish/Shiv with something that offsets that loss. Technically speaking, another player thatâs able to mitigate or heal damage can help cover your greedier use of second Feint, so itâs a hair different. Does that make it okay? I guess thatâs open to a lot of interpretation, but Iâm kind of into it.
And YEP, letâs go ahead and hope that Pickpocket finds some kind of relevant niche in TWW, but letâs not hope too, too hard, because it being improved in this initial design here might mean that itâs even more relevant in the context of some kind of 11.0 borrowed power like tier sets or whatever. That could come with its own slew of issues. Fingers crossed that weâre just getting the Crimson Vial rework finallyâŚ?
And yeah, I hear youâŚ
My fear with the kind of complexity shown with stuff like Unseen Blade is always that it seems like we spin an above-average number of plates to finally arrive at the normalized devside baseline of âaverage player doing average damage.â My opinion, which Iâve spouted a lot this xpack in the context of Echoing Rep and maybe a few Sin-centric things as well, is that successfully nailing an exceptionally difficult rotation should yield exceptionally memorable damage. If the only potential change is that weâre numerically punished for flubbing a GCD and momentarily arriving at the APM of a much simpler spec because of it, then the design there is just way janky and needs a rethink.
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The point still stands. We did 100% of our damage with fewer abilities.
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every spec did âmore damageâ with less abilities. go to classic
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Well in Cata combo point generators and finishers did more damage back then compared to now but SND was buffed which made auto damage even more prominent compared to WotLK.
Hemo in Cata used to be a strong combo point generator and Mutilate still retained its punch it had from BC and WotLK. Sinister Strike was pretty close to what is with the modern game for the most part if we do not include the second strike.
It feels more like an additional subclass than something âheroicâ or charismatic. For outlaw, if the Unseen Blade does shadow damage instead of physical, then the overall Trickster talents would probably be okay.
Iâve thought about this a bit more and am really not feeling good about this tree now. It has some good ideas but the overall execution is just too problematic to ignore.
Why are we adding more rotational buttons and carving utility out to be used for damage? Why are we cramming more buffs/debuffs into a tiny stealth window, leading to even more punishing gameplay for not lining things up correctly? Neither outlaw or sub needs more of that at this point.
My feint key is currently on a bind that is perfectly fine for its intended purpose - a defensive you press situationally - not for a rotational bind. So Iâd have to move it, and I donât really have space for yet another rotational button with my current setup.
Feint costs 35 energy and will grant 2 combo points. With how low the Fazed duration is, weâll be pressing Feint quite a lot, making talents like Graceful Guile and Nimble Fingers no longer optional utility talents, but now mandatory damage talents. This stands directly against one of the stated goals of the rogue talent rework in 10.2, which was to increase build variety and reduce the prevalence of damage talents in the class tree.
With Feint as a dps button, we either have two problems. One, where Feint has perma uptime, which could very well be possible for outlaw due to 2 charges + Float Like a Butterfly giving Feint CDR. Technically is already possible, but at a dps loss currently. If we have perma-feint uptime with a dps gain, are we okay with rogues in pvp and pve having 40% aoe damage reduction and 20% single target damage reduction up at all times for a dps gain? If not, and Float were to get nerfed or something else was done to prevent perma uptime, then are we okay with rogues not having access to a core defensive ability when they need it, because they had to press it to do optimal damage? And what of the rogues who did not take (or cannot, in the case of assa) Trickster, they just have to deal with worse or less frequent Feint to make room for this one hero talent tree?
I like some of the other talents in Trickster, but to be honest, none of that really matters at all if the core mechanic of the tree, Fazed, is designed to introduce Feint as a rotational damage button. There are just far too many problems with this concept to even think about anything else with regards to this tree. I hope to see iteration on this soon. Feint as a rotational damage button needs to be scrapped entirely.
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So we had no responses like Oracle yet, or clarifications like Diabolist and Colossus got
How does everyone feel? Do we fear they might entrench and keep feint tricksters no matter what? Do we feel instead like we have a good shot at getting a Oracle level rework?
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I have cancelled my sub. I know, no one cares, blah blah blah.
The last thing rogues need are more rotational buttons, especially at the cost of utility. I was really hoping these heroes trees might actually simplify a few things or at the very least replace some of the things i hate.
ER for example. I hate this ability. But it would be cool if a hero talent choice replaced it. âShadow clone replaces echoing reprimand doing such and such and blah blah blah.â
I use Shadow Clone as an example simply because, Thematically, i think its super cool and a great passive. I love seeing my clone pop out and do some stabbing.
Or something that now allows Sub to use one-handers instead of just daggers. Why does gloom blade have to be a dagger. a blade is a blade.
I really thought the Hero stuff would be more Thematic and less mechanic. Passives that would give your toon a new look and feel and bring back that RPG to the game.
If all i really have to look forward to is more buttons, more dependencies and prerequisites before using certain abilities, more weak auras and complicated specs, maybe wow isnt for me anymore.
The The Sunk Cost Fallacy is real (Iâve been playing a long time) so I will of course keep checking the news and forums.
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