Feedback: Player versus Player


With the release of Embers of Neltharion, we have made several PvP changes.

What has your experience been like so far? Let us know in this thread, and we greatly appreciate all of your feedback!


To start, Precognition is a terrible bandaid for PvP. It’s just another layer you’re adding to fix issues that have been created by past issues. PvP is turning into this arms race where casters do too much, so you buff melee up time (mobility), but then there’s too much up time, so you have to buff the way casters deal with it (instant casts), but then there’s too many instant casts, so you add micro CCs, too many stops, so now we’re at precognition. We need to start pruning the amount of stops this game has and remove Precognition.

There’s no 2400 2H sword on vendor people have asked about. Elite weapons aren’t really unique this time around, just reskinned.

Warlock and Boomkin feel miles ahead of other casters. Shadow having to play Void Torrent around Precog seems strong, not a huge fan of the play style. I’d rather see ways to buff dot speed and damage for more rotting, but I don’t speak for everyone.

Seen some Warriors say they feel like they’re being pushed back to playing Fury over Arms, I don’t think anybody wants that.

Somehow Enhance got through the week untouched while doing things like this:


I´m gonna try to go through this step by step based on the change notes and throw in some of my personal feelings at the end of the points as well, so please bear with me.

Big + for alt viability that honor gear is so strong going into the new season, on the contra feels very unrewarding for anyone that grinded out conquest gear, minmaxed and upgraded it and spent a lot of gold on enchants etc.
Would prefer to see new season honor gear have the same ilvl as old season conquest gear.

No major changes here honestly, i feel like overall the rewards are nice but also not perfect. While i´m aware that i´m not necessarily speaking for a lot/any of the high rated players, there is a discussion to be had about the gladiator mount being potentially rewarded for high rated soloshuffle, especially if you take into account how accessible rewards are on the PvE reward tracks.

(apart from the following, rewards have been pretty exciting to me and i´m very happy. Especially the S1 glad mount, excuse me that drake was insane?)
My main issues with the PvP rewards this season :
The 2.4k weapons don’t live up to the quality DF S1 introduced us to. Additionally, there are several weapon slots missing which is a bit disappointing. I feel like the world PvP gearsets look better than some of the elite class sets but most importantly some of the weapons are what i would expect to be a high rating reward, not the other way around.

Not a fan of the Arena pools at all, would prefer wide variety of possible arenas.

Overall i´m having more fun in PvP than I´ve had in a while, mostly thanks to solo shuffle and gearing alts being such a breeze.
And while we´ve received class tuning with a good amount of frequency, it still feels like a lot of times things are allowed to exist in seemingly overpowered conditions a little bit to long, to often.
In those lines i´d also like to echo a lot of the sentiment i´ve heard from quite a few players around me that there is a decided lack of communication for PvP, especially compared to the fantastic interviews and insights we´ve been getting for PvE.

One of the biggest PvP philosophy changes we´ve seen in forever, the CC duration rework:
Honestly, so far i feel mostly positive about it. I can’t recall any situations where i was loosing rounds because i was sitting in incredibly long cc chains that left me zero counterplay. Basically all of them could’ve been avoided if i played better, which is a good feeling. The sheer amount of micro CCs currently in the game is slightly infuriating though. 2 seconds silence from this, 1.5 sec stun from that, leaving me zero counterplay because you basically don’t see them coming unless you predict them based off game sense. Would really prefer a shift to less variety in CC abilities but giving them more impact instead.
Quick edit here since I initially forgot to mention Precog and Interrupts: very much agree with Efxsp above me on his points. Interrupts feel very lackluster and with precog sometimes even punishing if you press it at all. I´d prefer a version of the game where kicking a DPS actually is a deal. Even healers can get away with getting kicked for free in a lot of scenarios nowadays.

On the other side and leaving the CC rework topic behind already, healing, especially at lower shuffle ratings, still feels incredibly frustrating because you are utterly powerless in many many cases. The pace of the game allows very little room for mistakes, which would be fine if it was only in high rated games. What i think i´m trying to say is, i´d like to be able to carry a bit more as a healer at the rating i belong at. If i need to be as skilled as a multi rank 1 healer to be able to carry a bad DPS player at 1.5k rating i think the game turns into more of a lottery rather than a skill based, competitive gamemode. (Yes, this is very solo shuffle specific)

While this example is healer specific, it also applies to DPS. The chances of winning a round if your healer is not on the same level as the rest of the lobby are slim to none.

Long story short, i don’t think i am happy with the amount of impact bad play has compared to good play in solo shuffle, leading to a feeling of lottery when queuing as mentioned already.

Class tuning:
If i could make a wish, i´d love to see regular class tuning every 2 weeks next to hotfixes for utterly overpowered things. While i think overall balancing has been pretty nice on the casual/mid rank level (except for a few incidents, hi retpalli), there have been a few specs that remained very dominant at a high level for a little bit to long. Outside of that, i don’t play enough or at a high level to be able to comment on individual class balancing.

I´m also not a big fan of having to double check the PvE class balancing every patch to see what changes affect pvp and which dont. Yes, they´re mostly marked in the notes by now, but there still is a lot in there that impacts PvP in some way. And in what feels like many cases, disregards the impact it will have on PvP (i want to remember e.g. feral getting absolutely shafted in S1 due to combo nerfs from PvE and PvP, might be wrong). We honestly should have PvP tuning completely separated from PvE, it’s going to save us from a lot of headaches. (which, funnily enough, it kinda already is, but for some reason not really? whats up with that)

Also a good time to bring up Tier sets for PvP. Aquisition is a nightmare, stats are even worse. It feels like i could go months without 4set with bad RNG. And please give us more options for stats on tier and please give us a clear direction on the impact you´d like tier sets to have on PvP. Because currently it feels like they´re not supposed to be viable but you also don’t want to tell PvP-Paul he cant have the cool setbonus PvE players get.

Accessibility of WoW Arena:

While Soloshuffle and the new PvP gearing have honestly been a blessing (yes, even if the main 3v3 bracket has taken quite a hit), it also shows how many players are just completely overwhelmed with the gamemode. There are some nice improvements to the base arena UI coming with 10.1.5 but i don’t think it’s going to do anything to bridge the gap for new players.
Trying to put myself into the shoes of a new player to WoW and its PvP, i don’t think i’d know how to realize that i´m making mistakes. The only avenue to getting better is to talk to other players and have them point out your mistakes. While there is a positive aspect of community building and interaction there i´m sure, i feel like a pathway for a player to realize AND address their mistakes on their own NEEDS to exist. And it currently doesn’t.

Trying to explore the reason here a bit on the UI side:
Arena is such a complex gamemode and the base UI does not give you enough information to know what your mistakes are without using third party add-ons. Enemy and Party cooldowns are only theoretically trackable if you are very aware of every CD length and can spot them in the heat of battle, but once you get to DRs you´re at the mercy of add-ons.
As a dps, there is no way of knowing what CDs your healer has available unless you´ve extensively looked at a class you might not even play yourself and of course the other way around. Yes, this is part of the learning process and getting better, but we could absolutely make the process easier and way less frustrating by including these essential tools into the base UI.
The DF UI rehaul has been nothing short of fantastic so far, but there remains a lot of work to be done for Arena (and BGs but i don’t play them enough to be able to have an informed opinion on it, sorry :frowning: )
Can we get e.g. the AWC spectator cd tracking for the base UI? Seems pretty neat.

A lot of thoughts off the top of my head and i´ve not had the time to dig into this season as much as i would´ve liked to before making a post like this (think i´ve played less than 500 rounds of shuffle so far) but i hope i can help stir something with my PoV!


PvP has been pretty fun in terms of shuffle. I’ve played a little over 100 rounds so far and have yet to feel like anything is game breaking.

One main gripe I have is precog being extremely annoying in some cases. Shuffle is not a game mode where you can coordinate cc and interrupts very well, and playing with an interrupt that only lasts 2 seconds, it feels like I’m more of a damage buff for enemies in some cases. If someone is cc’d the moment before I hit shear, or I overlap interrupts right when a teammate interrupts, it feels like I’m punished for what I would consider to be playing the game correctly. What is the point of precog when the reward for dodging a kick is the fact that you don’t have to worry about that interrupt anymore? The duration of cc was already reduced, on top of nerfing interrupts to be near inconsequential as most casters have secondary schools where they can cc or just press more instant casts. When you interrupt a healer it’s not very meaningful unless you can immediately cc (literally a 0.7s window to shear hex someone and I have the highest haste possible for a pvper) or you have cooldowns up with kill pressure.

On the topic of balance, the dev team seems fairly on top of tuning which I’m happy about. I see clips linked above where people afk in stuns while enhance pops 3 big dps cooldowns and see issue with it (if you don’t pop cds you deserve to die). Also revival is a magic immunity which isn’t helping against a full blown doomwinds/windstrike/lust window and cocoon is and never should be strong enough to counteract a 3min cd stacked with doomwinds and lust. Blizzard could nerf lust to grant haste that’s more in line with PI values relative to cd, and perhaps nerf lightning bolts fired by ascendance by a bit, but I wouldn’t make any changes based on the clips above. I know lava lash has been quite strong (around 200k lava lashes and 220k non crit elemental blasts). I personally don’t play the build and have yet to see another enhance in a shuffle lobby (haven’t touched 3s yet), but I could see that as frustrating. The main way to nerf it without hurting EB as a whole would be to nerf elemental spirits slightly, along with a small ashen catalyst nerf (if blizzard sees enhance as an issue).

For enhance healing I am at a bit of a loss for blizzards intended design. Obviously earth shield and healing stream totem are quite strong, but the addition of stormreaver makes it seem like devs wanted maelstrom heals to be an option for enhance without losing throughput. Then it was followed by a 75% nerf to the effectiveness of maelstrom on heals which made stormreaver a dead talent and has even made some enhance stop using healing throughput in our spec tree cause it’s so bad. Healing Surge in shadowlands was one of my favourite things, even after it was nerfed, so it’s sad to see it be a button not even worth pressing most of the time.

Another concern is fire mages doing close to 90k ignite damage every second. I’m not entirely sure what causes that to happen but I feel like it should probably be fixed.

In terms of UI the new change on 10.1.5 for more clarity when teammates are cc’d and other debuffs is a welcome one! One problem that I believe still exists is that you can’t see pets when using raid frames without an addon. Seeing pet hp is a huge deal in pvp and is a much needed change.

Gearing this season has felt amazing. I can pick exactly what stats I want between warmode/honor/conquest/crafted gear, and the pace of one or two 447 pieces from warmode every week alongside a crafted piece every 2 weeks and conquest has been bliss. Also getting the free tier token for 1600 is very welcome, and I’m glad it was lowered from 1800 for less experienced players.

Cheers, Sha

(P.S I’m still waiting for my night elf shamans :smiley: )


I’m a bit late to the game but better late than never! In this post I want to talk about the three biggest factors I think affect fun and competitiveness in PvP:
Gearing-Class Tuning-Accessibility

  1. Starting off with gearing, I think the current system for acquiring gear in PvP is amazing. Between honor, conquest, warmode, and crafted gear, it is extremely easy to quickly gear a character and be playing at a competitive level. Starting with a higher conquest cap for the first week and being able to afford a 2-handed weapon in week two of the season is great. I also appreciate the two free conquest trophies from the first PvP chest for crafted gear and the free tier token from 1600. I would give gearing this patch a 10/10.

  2. Class tuning is always interesting because you can never please everyone but I think overall most specs are represented and in a decent spot. That being said, there are definitely a few outliers on the top end that I think could use some nerfs.
    Devastation, Fire, Balance, Destruction, Enhancement, Subtlety, Beast Mastery/Survival, and Arms/Fury all feel extremely oppressive and not fun to play against right now. I don’t want to see these specs nerfed into irrelevance but just brought in line with the majority of other specs. Every spec should have viable compositions that allow them to counter others while still having counters of their own. As we saw with Retribution last patch, and certain specs this patch, if a spec is overtuned it is able to counter specs/classes it didn’t before, while losing specs that counter the overtuned spec. While I definitely enjoyed myself as Retribution last patch, the constant yo-yo’ing of spec tuning creates an unfun meta where in some cases its easier and better to reroll than it is to stick to a main class. I think if the current overperforming specs can be brought in line with the majority of other specs without being over-nerfed then this season has the potential to be extremely fun. Overall, class tuning gets a 6/10 for me but if the overperforming specs get brought in line it has the potential to be an 8 or a 9.

  3. Accessibility this whole expansion has been great due to easy gearing and rated solo shuffle. However with little to no incentive for healers to queue, wait times for dps have caused many to give up/quit the game entirely. I think some new unique rewards for healers hitting certain milestones (not just bonus honor and conquest) could help. Transmogs, tabards, enchants, titles, pets, toys, and maybe even a unique mount for hitting certain rating thresholds would all do a lot to get more people healing. At the end of the day though, if it isn’t fun to heal, people won’t do it. Class tuning is a big factor in whether or not people will choose to heal and currently damage is so high that healing is just unenjoyable. It feels like no matter what you do, or how well you play, your team can just die in a single global. LFG is still a decent tool for finding groups for regular 2v2 and 3v3 arenas but I think some changes are needed. I think we should increase the number of active applications you can have from 5 to 10, and allow people applying for groups to add filters so you can see specific specs or rating brackets you’d like to apply for. Finally, when it comes to accessibility in PvP, the biggest issue is the learning curve. Due to how many specs there are in game, and each spec having their own set of offensive and defensive cooldowns and crowd controls, it can be extremely hard for new players to get into PvP. It is almost a necessity to play with addons like omnibar, weakauras, SArena/Gladius, and too many others. I think a great addition for accessibility would be to essentially make the UI from AWC a part of the game. Having default arena frames that track the major defensive and offensive CD’s of each player in the match would go a long way to help new players feel less overwhelmed and be able to jump right into the game without spending hours setting up addons and weakauras. For me, accessibility is gonna get a 5/10. But with some small QoL changes and better tuning it could easily be an 8.

Overall PvP is at a 7/10 for me right now. I know others will feel differently but these are my current thoughts. I hope we can get some sort of dev interview/Q&A for PvP like they got for M+ a few weeks back to hear what the current design philosophy is and give feedback.

P.S. please remove map pools, I was open to the idea in theory but in practice it has just made certain weeks extremely unfun for certain specs/comps to queue. Having all the maps available all the time was much more fun because it truly felt random and no one spec/comp had a week long advantage for queues.