Feedback: Paladins

In Development The War Within Beta Test
61

Holy Paladin tuning is in the crapper.

I am playing Herald of the Sun, mostly because I loved when we had Eternal Flame many, many years ago. It was nice to finally have a heal-over-time. I got to say, though, it feels like it hits like a wet noodle.

I’ve played all healers on beta in heroics. Holy Paladin is the one that struggles the most. Players have 3-5M hp in a dungeon, yet my Flash of Light is only critting for 400-500k? Holy shock only feels like it is doing something to health bars when it has the Blessing of An’she proc.

Beacon of Light nerf is definitely noticeable. It really, really sucks that Daybreak is locked behind Beacon of Faith/Virtue. If I had the option to take Daybreak without touching Faith/Virtue, I would. Beacon has been an iconic ability for Holy Paladins since WotLK; it really shouldn’t have been nerfed.

Holy Prism is only decent because it proc Dawnlight, otherwise it does next to no healing on its own. Holy light takes fooooorever to cast, but it was the only ability that actually seemed like it could adequately MOVE a health bar.

Light of Dawn is still total trash. 3 HP to do ~200k healing to 3-5 people who have 3M+ HP… It’s literally a waste of HP.

Like, yeah, there’s a few issues with how holy paladin plays (it has an identity crisis between wanting to be a caster and wanting to be a DPS healer). It has a fairly solid foundation, though, but the tuning just really needs to be honed with this thing.

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62

On a separate and maybe slightly-less-glowing note…

-Templar in general just feels… Eh? My initial impression of this tree was “MOAR HAMMERS PL0X”, and that impression didn’t change upon playing it. Hammer of Light is decent enough to press, and the tree is functionally okay, but at a certain point it stops feeling like Paladin and starts feeling like a Hammerdin. I’m sure this appeals to some people, but it’s just not for me.

-Lightsmith is… Honestly, much better off than I thought it would be. It’s a support tree, and while I’m a sucker for free support tools, it felt like it belonged on Prot far more than it does on Holy. I’d use it without complaint as Holy, though. Better than my initial impression from previews.

-Whoever cooked up Wake-Wings in the Radiant Glory talent, keep cooking. It picks the cadence of the spec up, and takes Wings from “kinda hard to waste this” territory into “you really can’t waste this” territory. When taken on top of the Ret rework from Dragonflight, Ret feels pretty great.

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After further testing, dawn lights duration has been found to stack indefinitely due to radiant glory rng proc. You can effectively highroll this dot to have 100% uptime with season 1 gear. Sims avatar increase active dawnlights duration by 25% which means if you have a 60 second long dawnlight it gets extended by 15 seconds.

Divine hammer also can’t be played wi th templar without using it after hammer of light and after you generate to 5.

Both of these talents are problematic and promote degen play styles to fuel its engines. Please remove them before herald gets nerfed and templar gets a effected

64

My feed-back on the class for ret is this;

Remove jurisdiction and give ret’s a gap closer instead (do not confuse this as free-form mobility such as a sprint) Paladins should be fighting close to an enemy, as it makes them feel more like a heroic knight fighting a foe, when we have too many options to fight at long range that feeling is diminished, and slowly turns into a coward in plate fighting at a range, and no plate class should feel that way. This is also a request to return ret to a more traditional dependency on being melee more then just be up close to auto attack. 10-12 yard range for BoJ/verdict is plenty anyways.

I also want to request to tone down access for HoW, our avengers wrath/crusade should not grant access to it, specially if we are going to be in the effect of the buffs more frequently. Not only does it add to the “be at any range to deal damage and become more of a ranged fighter then melee” deal, but it also diminishes using TS/CS for those that do not choose to have CSSA. I’m fine with FV giving a proc to HoW, as it is not frequent enough to really matter.

As for a gap closer, I recommend the idea of wings of liberty (leap to the target) for it, as it gives us a very heroic feel. Falling sword from diablo could also do the trick, but only on the target, and program it to spawn you to the closest point to the target to prevent it from feeling too much like shadowstep.

I also would like to request to change our stun/blind to a physcal effect like the rest of the classes in the game. It is unfair to the paladin to be singled out as the only class in the game with a dispellable stun/blind effect. If the duration in pvp needs to be adjusted, then do so, but make the playing field equal to everyone in pvp.

Edit: I also want you guys to relook at ret’s activation of their hero talents, as it feels a bit silly for both templar/herald to be activated by the same skill (albeit one you talent into) to activate both hero tree’s. It also makes them feel samey somewhat do to that with the only difference is one makes wake into a 2-combo skill and the other not so much.

5 Likes
65

I liked what you had to say here. Especially

Furthermore, I should be able to enjoy solo / world content as Holy, without feeling as if I have to repsect to Retribution.

I need to spend more time in beta. But now I think I might restart with the idea of leveling up and playing through as a Holy Paladin.

If it were up to me, the Holy talent tree would have two lines where one can specialize as either a caster or melee healer. I love consecration healing and would like to see seal/judgement of light return. Healing via aura mastery is also pretty cool. We should have the option of adding damage by wielding 2h or adding survivability using a 1h and shield.

This is why I wish I could get into Alpha sometime. Because I think much of what I would like is far too much, too late, when in beta.

1 Like
66

Speaking of healing through Aura, I feel like Aura of Mercy needs to be…dramatically buffed if it still has to compete with Blessing of Seasons.

It’s just not worth it otherwise. The healing it provides to only 3 allies pales to the benefit the Seasons buffs provide.

1 Like
67

My thoughts on Prot Paladin…

The addition of Sanctuary was a good compromise with the whole needing to plant in Consecration, but I feel like that entire mechanic just needs to go imho.

I don’t like the change to Bastion of Light. Only getting 2 extra Holy Power from 5 Judgements is way less power than getting 3 free Shield of Righteousness/Word of Glorys. I don’t think it’s worth even pointing a point in it anymore which is fine I can put it in something else.

Prot is still very much budgeted towards talents that reduce the cooldown of your abilities based on your Holy Power spent. 1-2 points in Gift of the Golden Val’Kyr, Righteous Protector, and Resolute Defender feel mandatory, especially with Val’Kyr that gives you a free Guardian when you drop <30% hp.

It’s pretty hard to budget for offhealing talents like Hand of the Protector, Seal of Charity, etc. without giving up other more useful talents.

Out of all the end tree talents Moment of Glory is the most lackluster imho. Bubble taunt is infinitely more useful.

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This. Absolutely agree.

I disagree with this, I think having it generate 2 HP makes it feel so much better, and has helped in many scenarios.

10000000000000 %

5 Likes
69

Brief opinion on protection

  • I’ve tried Lightsmith a bit more now and I think it fits better into the Protection rotation than Templar.

  • Just a thought experiment: sometimes I have a lot of free WOG procs lying around uselessly. What if we use WOG and the overheal is activated as Holy Fire (AOE Burning Aura) for a certain moment around you — alternatively as Burst Damage. That way we could better incorporate the procs into the Rota and they would also have a use (Faith in the Light)

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Retribution

I really enjoy the extra hammers from Hammer of Light, though I wish it was easier to see. The animation is either too small or not visible enough to be able to see it.

Hammer of Wrath

This visual has always felt really bad. You execute an enemy by throwing a tiny flimsy hammer?
Would love to see an updated animation where a holy hammer strikes down from above, and radiates holy light out. Or something more than a tiny light green hammer. It doesn’t feel good to press

Devotion/Retribution Aura

Would love a glyph that would allow this to play on repeat like how it is when hpals use Aura Mastery. Going back to Warcraft 3, both Arthas and Uther had this aura that was continually pulsating, and it just looks so good

Eternal Flame

I enjoy the nice heal, but wish it was more of a “either heal an ally or damage an enemy” type of ability (and honestly putting another button or two into ret’s rotation would be wonderful)

Dawnlights

I think it would be really cool if these pulsated with holy light either from you to the enemy/ally or vice versa

Herald of the Sun

I think I need to play around with it more, but it doesn’t feel all that exciting, animation wise

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71

Prot is definitely feeling more squishy than expected, and the damage output is meh, but that also could be gearing

Ret is doing good damage, but man, certain things (like those annoying bleeds) chew up

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My opinions/feedback largely align to what others have posted, so I won’t boil the metaphorical ocean to rehash what they’ve said.

I have tried both the Templar and Lightsmith and find that the Lightsmith ‘feels’ more in-line with my spec (Protection), but some of the talents could just be tuned to last a bit longer. Like, the Sanctify Weapon one - just let me have it for a couple of hours. Having it fall off after 60 minutes or 120 minutes doesn’t materially change the power or make it better or worse.

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Protection feedback: can we please have a choice node for Inspiring Vanguard? It would be nice to have an alternative to free shields proccing all the time, I find it overwhelming. A choice node for Shining Light would be great as well; I generally hate having several buttons glowing on my bars constantly.

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Amazing ret feedback above but my two cents come into a couple things.

Divine Purpose and Emperyan Power should be base lined for all specs in some form. It’s a fun proc but the problem is how conflicting it is with other talents and always in the end as the last few expansions go we know what happens when we try to conflict DP and EP with other things. It results in almost a non choice, its a fun playstyle just always the harsh conflict.

Another thing to bring up is Divine Hammer. It when it first came out was a fun button to press, the animation is amazing and it’s supposed functionality has always been in question. If anything its probable to keep it neutral as it is now but allow functionality with Golden Path and Seal of Mercy talents however have it off the GCD entirely.

Sure you can have Divine Hammers as a weird AOE burst spender while using Consecration, thats a massive boost to AoE per se, but if you were to revert that change keep it off GCD so it’s not conflicting with other abilities.

75

They really need to condense Holy Paladin, take the power away from the insane amount of CDs, also contributing to button bloat and put power back into our abilities.

Being tuned around the insane amount of CDs feels horrible. Healing outside of CDs feels horrible.

How they have not came to this conclusion is beyond me.

I’d rather fewer CDs and heal decently and use CDs for greater healing for those moments that need it then currently heal horribly and rely solely on CDs that I’m constantly having to track to be “decent”.

If they buff our healing the issue is our then insane amount of cds get even better, so then reduce the amount of cds so we can heal!.

To me Holy needs a lot of work to feel good and be in a decent spot.

10 Likes
76

Hpal Lightsmith:

  • Fear no Evil and Excoriation don’t have much use in PvE.

  • I would never take Excoriation in PvE. Attaching a slow effect to my important stun ability could grief my team.

  • Rotating armaments is frustrating to play around. I feel it’s too complex and not impactful enough to bother planning it’s use in an encounter. At present, it feels like another low impact, “just send it on CD” ability for the hpal kit.

Edit:

  • Armament shield feels very strong compared to the weapon. Feels like I’m always just looking to have the shield up.
  • With the tier set bonuses, it feels as though Lightsmith does not get nearly the same benefits from more Holy Shocks and stronger WoG/LoD as HotS.

Hpal HotS:

  • At present, the dawnlight interaction with Holy Prism/Barrier solidifies those talents as maintenance CDs (i.e. don’t think about it, send it on CD).

Edit:

Rotating abilities (Armaments and Blessing of Seasons)

  • I really don’t like them. They feel way too hard to optimize and don’t feel particularly rewarding when you do happen to have the right ability at the right time. If they are tuned such that there is never a “bad option” for a particular moment, I feel like that necessitates that every option have the impact of a wet noodle to keep the balance.

Edit #2:

Melee casting

  • With the abundance of infusion procs, it feels like I’m becoming a caster that needs to stand in melee. Melee combat is punishing/scary when you constantly need to plant your feet.
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77

Agreed. I’d much rather see its healing power baked into a handful of core spells, instead of being spread into a bunch of short cd’s that feel like they do nothing on their own.

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Pretty much. I’ll be honest, I thoroughly enjoyed the level of healing that could be done after the rework in S2 of DF before they started nerfing to compensate for the CD’s. I thought it played well and it really pumped. I enjoyed the rotational aspect of it, and how I could appropriately cycle CD’s to deal with difference phases.

Now it feels like I basically have to pop all of my CDs in order to pump decent amounts of healing out, when I can get on a different healer and do that without popping CD’s. It just grinds my gears feeling like a limp noodle. Honestly, I’d be fine with just having Aura Mastery and Wings as my only CD’s.

Bake Daybreak into Wings, i.e.: Pop wings, all glimmers are immediately consumed for 150% of their value, you receive X amount of mana back per glimmer, and your next 3 holy shocks cast two additional times. It’s on a 2 minute CD, gives wings an extra amount of oomf, and allows for better tuned healing outside of the wings window.

Tyrs is a nice throwback to legion, but is it really necessary?

Don’t touch my Divine Toll because I love that ability.

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79

I haven’t played Paladin extensively in some time, but wanted to highlight some pain points I’ve had with paladins in beta:

Templar

While this hero tree feels great as ret, I find it to be particularly frustrating as prot paladin, especially at lower gear / haste levels.

SotR uptime already feels tricky to manage on it’s own, but having to spend 5 HP on Hammer of Light (even after the 3 HP from Tyr’s) just feels awful.

I really think that, for prot only, Templar would be a lot better if it had no interaction with Holy Power (remove Tyr’s giving HP - although it is is nice to keep around if possible) and Hammer of Light didn’t cost HP.

Sanctuary

This talent is nice, but I feel like it doesn’t go far enough to address the problems with consecrate.

Consecrate is not a fun ability to press.

Being forced to stand in your consecrate is not fun gameplay, especially with how modern wow is designed.

Feeling like a piece of paper when you’re not in your consecrate (or have your consecrate buff) is not fun.

I think I’d love to see this mechanic go away as it feels like a blight on the class, but that may not be feasible in beta. Spending globals on spells that don’t generate HP already feels kinda crummy (especially at lower gear / haste levels) since it can be a struggle to maintain SotR. And having to recast consecrate every four seconds because a encounter really wants you keep moving is just frustrating.

A quick fix would be make half of consecrate’s defensive benefit to apply passively all the time even when not in consecrate, but I really must stress that this new talent is not enough.

Melee Holy Paladin

The healer changes in S3 / S4 of Dragonflight has basically ruined the melee paladin playstyle thanks to the incredibly weak power of spenders and I fear this really hasn’t been addressed at all in TWW.

It is so strange to me to have paladins largely ignore casting spells for all of BfA / SL / Most of DF, only to have it be forced back upon us at the last moment without any alternative.

I do not find caster paladin to be fun, and I honestly think it’s a rather boring playstyle. But rather than seeing the beta enabling the return of this spec, I feel like the changes to Divine Light have only further pushed paladin into the caster playstyle.

Light of the Martyr

I do like the changes to bake this into our core skills, but I think this play style would be better suited by attaching it to Word of Glory instead of Holy Shock.

Holy Shock is already overloaded in the talent tree, and often times WoG feels underpowered compared to Light of Dawn in larger group settings.

Letting WoG be the go to triage heal feels far more appropriate spot for this kind of healing.

Ret Single Target

I’m hesitant to comment too much here since I’m not the biggest fan of Ret, but I have tried out the changes in Beta and they feel somewhat lacking? Especially in Single Target.

Executioner’s Sentence and Divine Toll (as ret and only in single target) do not feel like fun abilities to press.

I also feels like with the removal of Avenging Crusader and the push to a 30s build of Crusade / ES / Radiant Glory does seem like an improvement, but it still feels like the spec feels… empty. Missing something. It just feels so simplistic.

I think a lot about Inquisition and I don’t know if it’s the answer (it probably isn’t) but it does desperately feel like there needs to be more going on.

I do feel like ret in AoE still feels great with the one minute wings / final reckoning build.

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80

Absolutely. I really really hope that they change it so that the insta cast melee paladin comes out on top and stays that way

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